Use of biomass and Waste-to-energy

Re: Use of biomass

Hey Friend,
The best answer is RECYCLING and GENERATION........
Power Generation using this waste.........
But for that we need money what to do with that.............
A single Engineer cant do anything.................
To meet this requirement we all need to REUNITE..............

Regards,
VIPUL

Re: Use of biomass

The main motive behind starting this thread is discussing and, if possible, innovating new technologies and better ways to handle and utilise whatever we see and dread of. Personally, I am dreaming for a cleaner world. And I want to contribute for it, in the best way. I want others to contribute and I want the best people talk about this. The CE is the best place for this. I have all my hopes set on CE forum.

Re: Use of biomass

Good start aj_onduty. This thread has a lot of potential 😀

As a suggestion (you guys can add more), lets start by doing research:
- The amount of waste there are in cities. Perhaps we can pick a few as case studies so we can get some raw stats.
- Existing biomass technology, with their advantages and disadvantages. Efficiencies?
- Estimated costs?

Once we understand the constraints involved and what realistic objectives we could achieve, then we'll have some sort of rough idea on what it takes to implement this technology.

Re: Use of biomass

Industrial biomass can be grown from abundant types of plants, including miscanthus, switchgrass, hemp, corn, poplar, willow, sorghum, sugarcane[3], and a variety of tree species, range from eucalyptus to oil palm (palm oil). The fastidious plant used is usually not important to the end products, but it does affect the handing out of the raw material.
Thanks,

conservation is a multifaceted approach that involves integrated <a href="https://www.egenergy.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">My Blog – My WordPress Blog</a> measures.

Re: Use of biomass

We have biomass power plants that use plant refuse, especially agricultural refuse like straw of rice, wheat, mustard etc. and husk of rice, and also many grass varieties. Using agricultural and foliage biomass is one way to cut down usage of conventional fuels. But we should also aim at many other things. Along with usage of agricultural and forest wastes, we have to take a look into the cities. I have a reason for stressing this here
We all are aware of green house gases. We pelt stones, close down and, sometimes, nuke down the factories which produce gases like CO2, chlorine, etc. Why don't we engineers try to see the fact that CO2 and chlorine are not the only gases which cause the dreaded green house effect. There is something else, which is known as methane.
Methane is a gas which is 25 times more powerful than CO2. And I want you all to know that the dumping grounds and other filthy places you see in your cities produce tons of it, every day. Nature can not do anything about that, that production is illegal in the law book of nature. Have we thought of doing something of this? Methane is a natural gas. Why can't we use the tons of methane to generate electricity, for district heating, for any use for that matter. Why aren't we thinking for this?
Thank you for taking time for reading this. Now I want you to take some more time to think about it.
I beg each of you to think about it.
Thank you.

Re: Use of biomass

d_vipulA single Engineer cant do anything.................

A single engineer can do quite a lot!

Re: Use of biomass

@bill190
Kindly review your post, I don't think that thees links are relevant with the topic under discussion in this thread. Kindly edit the post if you think is required.
But if you think that these links have any relevance with the topic, kindly let us discuss its relevance before we discuss its application. I appreciate your efforts and I am looking forward for your involvement. Thank you.

Re: Use of biomass

This I found out from a pdf I saw when I was Googling on.This is a copy paste, but this is just a general information. So, I do not think that I am doing something illegal. Correct me if I am. This is about Mumbai.
Mumbai generates waste to the tune of approximately 7,025tonnes per day. The waste
consists of:
• 5,025tonnes of mixed waste (bio-degradable and recyclable)
• 2,000tonnes of debris and silt.

The biodegradable waste (wet waste) is made up of vegetable and fruit remainders,
leaves, spoiled food, eggshells, cotton, etc. Recyclable (dry waste) consists of
newspapers, thermocol, plastic, battery cells, wires, iron sheets, glass, etc. Debris
includes construction waste, renovation waste, demolition waste, etc. Silt comprises earth
and clay from drains and road corners. It is estimated that by 2008 such waste will
aggregate 9,000tonnes per day due to increase in the city's population.

Average Generation of Waste by a Citizen of Mumbai

The generation of waste by an individual depends on the socio-economic conditions to
which the person belongs. For example, a rich family will generate nearly four to five kg
of mixed waste per day; a middle class family will generate between one to three kg of
mixed waste per day and a poor family, in slums, will generate close to 500grams per
day.


This is just for an information.
Can CEans analyse this?

Re: Use of biomass

This info seems to be too old. It is estimated that Mumbai will generate 9000 tonnes of waste per day in 2008. It's already 2010, and the waste generation will most likely have become even higher..

Re: Use of biomass

Yes, I think so, You see, I was just browsing through. But just see what amount it is generating. And can you imagine how much methane would it be generating?
We are talking about a high amount of fuel going waste.
We talk about automobile fuel wastage due to traffic jams, but we cannot do anything possibly. A very high amount of fuel is wasted that way. But the solution is very difficult. But we just can't see the opportunity in our hands to save the fuel. Methane is something on the good use of which, we can solve two problems, fuel shortage and global warming.
Why don't we understand that?

Re: Use of biomass

well i have a concept in my mind... today more than 60% of pollution is caused by the harmful gases released by vehicles.If you know there is a plant known as jatropha. The oil extracted from this can b used in place of deisel in engines. This reduces pollutants emission and also jatropha is renewable. There would be some manipulations required before you use the extracted oil. But scientists can easily over come this. Hoe CEans will look forward for this.
Thank you..

Re: Use of biomass

Nice work you have done #-Link-Snipped-# by pointing out about the jatropha. Can you or anyone else give a bit more information about it? Anything about the alleged process used for the extraction of the fuel oil, can be pointed out.
Thank you.

Re: Use of biomass

i don know exactly how oil is extracted.. extracted oil is directly avbl in market(if anyone wants to test). main reasons for using jatropha are- They
<LI class=paral>Develop without much care and irrigation. <LI class=paral>Grow even on marginal/saline/acidic/alkaline soils and slopy lands. <LI class=paral>Need hardly any application of pesticide. How to achieve high productivity?
<LI class=paral>Plant at 2x2 m in 60x60x60 cm pit filled with soil mixed with 2 kg organic manure. <LI class=paral>Drip irrigate, if possible; monsoon, little; winter, fortnightly; summer, frequently. <LI class=paral>Prune main stem upon 1.5 m growth for profuse branching and higher seed yield. <LI class=paral>Spray foliage with growth promoters for higher yield of seeds and oil. <LI class=paral>Ensure maximum exposure to sunlight for enhancing seed yield. <LI class=paral>Use inter-cropping for first 2-3 years for income while Jatropha plants mature

Re: Use of biomass

"<LI class=paral>" This is nothing but the bullets inserted. I don know why they are not visible?

Re: Use of biomass

From this, what I understood is that we use the seeds for production of jatropha oil. Is it just like the production of of other oils from the plants like sunflower?Can you give an estimate on how much oil can a plant give, or how much plants we need for the extraction of 1litre of oil?

Re: Use of biomass

ya it is somewhat of same kind oil extraction. some part of it may differ. I don know exact process of Extraction.About three tons of usable oil or an equivalent of 3,000 liters of diesel can be produced from one hectare of Jatropha plants.

Re: Use of biomass

Oh, thank you,. So, is it used now? Is there any existing technology or is there any production unit currently producing it?

Re: Use of biomass

it is been produced in India only... and you know India is largest producer of it.. To my knowledge, I don think so this fuel is really used in practical..

Re: Use of biomass

Can you make it clear what is the problem when we use it for practical uses? If no, can you tell me the source from where you got this knowledge?

Re: Use of biomass

I have not carried out any research over the contents of jatropha... So i cant say anything whats the problem in practical..There are manny books,internet,college sirs etc from where you get his knowledge..

Re: Use of biomass

Jatropha oil newbies like me need to view this, this satisfies the initial curiosities and increases advanced curiosities.
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatropha_oil" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Jatropha Oil</a>

Re: Use of biomass

ya.. it is just the basic..I mean it is just the thing to know about jatropha

Re: Use of biomass

It can live upto 35 years and can be even used as jet fuel. The only problem it has is the water intake.

Re: Use of biomass

Water intake problem can be resolved by some teflon coating over body... What I feel is dat there is some content in Jatropha which does not allow it to be used in DI

Re: Use of biomass

I am sorry to let you misunderstand but what I meant from water intake is the water intake by the plant to grow, to support its normal growth cycle. Jatropha requires five times more water per unit energy than sugarcane and corn.

Re: Use of biomass

k... but I don think so India has any problem with water.. if we use water to overcome diesel it is always accepatble

Re: Use of biomass

Yes, the tropical areas and rain-forest areas are the best places to grow jatropha. In those places,irrigation is required only in the first year of its long life, which is 35 years.

Re: Use of biomass

ya.. water is mainly needed for jatropha

Re: Use of biomass

The vehicles which used jatropha oil in their engines, three Mercedes cars and a Boeing 747(one of its four engines have been supplied a 50:50 supply of Jatropha oil and jet A1 fuel)

Re: Use of biomass

They used only some part of Jatropha.. why not a engine completely of jatropha? JDi?

Re: Use of biomass

U are the mechanical engineer. Hey, you can design one. I was thinking of having a power plant of the bio diesel. It can use two sources, the diesel and the jatropha oil residue.

Re: Use of biomass

Jatropha seems to be a promising source. Can we use jatropha for other uses, I mean, other than crushing and using it as biodiesel?
As we can use both jatropha residue cake and bio-diesel as fuel, can't we use the jatropha seeds in some other forms after gasification, or any other process which removes the unwanted part of the seeds?
Anyone knowing any technology?

Re: Use of biomass

Some questions are being asked about jatropha in this site
<a href="https://www.i-sis.org.uk/JatrophaBiodieselIndia.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Jatropha Biodiesel Fever in India</a>

Re: Use of biomass

Kindly view this one
#-Link-Snipped-#

Re: Use of biomass

dude designing an engine??its not a play man... there are loads of criteria for engine... top persons ar not only able to design it...m still far away..

Re: Use of biomass

This thread was started so that we can think more about biomass. But this thread is looking like the Government. Personally, I want to hear and discuss about more ideas in biomass usage. Anyone who can do it?

I've updated the title of this thread, as I feel biomass is technically not inclusive of energy recovery from all waste 😛

So we have some rough numbers. Using 2008 data, 5 tonnes of waste daily in Mumbai can be used for Waste-to-energy processes. How are the waste stored in the landfills? Are there any separation of waste types or are they all clumped together?

If we are focusing on methane, Anaerobic digestion would probably be a good way to extract it from the biodegradable waste and utilize it.

Other methods include:
- Pyrolysis
- Thermal depolymerization
- Gasification

There are probably more. Each of these have their advantages and disadvantages, though I'll warrant a guess that they are not deployed in a larger scale just because capital costs and complexity. Which ones do you think can be practically implemented in a city like Mumbai?

We'll try to avoid incineration of waste as this probably causes more harm than good 😛

From the purview of waste collection, I feel one obstacle is separating the waste that can be used for energy recovering methods (be it biomass, etc). For example, how do we currently throw our household waste? Do we clump everything in one bag or do we separate different types such as biodegradable, plastics, metal? If we do this pre-emptively, it will help reduce costs involved at the waste processing plant to separate these.

Well, I think it is not a tech problem rather than a psico-politic one. You can't change peoples brain. Ahmmm no, you got no chances... 😒
Anyway, a plant for recycling anithyng is quite a big job but not so impossible. You throw in everything, from plastics to meat, from batteries to metal scrape, from cars to space shuttles, from sea algae to dead rats, from old shoes to manure... You can do a plant capable of handlind all of these, separate and recover metals, gasify plastics, burn wather, and other magic things till you get clean energy, good metals for melting etc...
Whato you can't do is make people change their way to think, so you'll never get founds to make an automated plant for clean recovery of trash. Neither you'll convince people to act cleaner than they are acustomed.
I believe this is a matter of fact. Don't you?😔

Dear Friends,
It is a tough job, but not impossible. Firstly, we should set up biomass power plants which use agriculture residues(Which are burnt in the fields- the soil quality decreases and air pollution increases). If we pay for something a person wastes off, he will readily agree to give it to you. So, you can set up and run biomass power plants till you can find enough fuel to support it. The entrepreneurs will see a good income from the carbon credit the plant owners will earn and thus they will also try to bag in a few credits. But there is a saturation point for biomass power plants, which when reached, the entrepreneurs will think about alternate ideas, this is when the waste management and power from wastes come into picture. The possibilities, like this example, are unlimited; if we just storm in your heads and be determinant.
What do you think?

My dear aj_onduty, you are mostly right. Nevertheless a mojority of people in many countries are too acustomed to do what they are acustomed to do, to throw everithing in the trash can. Trash separation is not so feasible as it seems. As I stated before, people's mind is unchangeable without a good lobotomy. And even after that results are impredictable. 😒
The right way is to design plants to be feed by almost anything from batteries, to biomass, to plastics, to depleted oil... and capable of automatically convert all that trash in good separated metals, salts, ashes, energy and only CO2. Saddly CO2 is the final result of a good combustion and you can't do any better.
I, and some engineers, are thinking on a way to avoid CO2 release in the atmosphere but pure oxygen.:sshhh:
But this require some financing for research and in the country where we are living things are not so easy. As I stated it is a matter of brain usage...😁
Regards...

Dear VH,
The people can be enlightened by drives dear friend, the consumers are the best separators, they just need some "motivation" They can be given some monetary benefits for their work, yes, every one who creates wastes should be given money for separating and dumping. You think it is impossible, think again. You give money to farmers for giving away their wastes, do the same for the common man too. thats a revolution. And about carbon dioxide, you have to worry about the particulate emissions only, the CO2 released does not affect the environment as the CO2 from the fossil fuels do, refer the idea of carbon credit. Google a bit you will understand what it is.
Thanks for the effort, still proceed with your R&D over O2 from CO2

Yes, as I told you, you'r right. I know about CO2 from fossil fuels etc... What I'm trying to tell here is that in Europe, people pay taxes for recicling trash, they are asked to chose what is goin where, they are asked to work and pay for it. This is'nt exactly what you are talking about. You are nevertheles right. Give advantages to people and they will differentiate garbige. In Europe, governaments are real Vampires, they will make you pay for your job of litter-separator, they are not prone to give they are allways ready to ask for, indeed. This is the curse of the black litter... 😀

Van HelsingWhat I'm trying to tell here is that in Europe, people pay taxes for recycling trash, they are asked to chose what is goin where, they are asked to work and pay for it.

Invert this thing and what you will find out is that Europe becomes a carbon neutral continent. You have a mechanism for waste seperation, the whole process will be a lot easy for the people, government and the entrepreneurs. They can strike the gold if they pay a bit to the people...

oh then do you think mumbai stands first in generating the waste?Then what are the possible ways to prevent generating the wastes?The best way is recycling..There are large number of technologies available to make use of a variety of biomass types as a renewable energy source.Bio mass can be converted into other usable forms of energy such as ethanol,methane,biodiesel..some of the conversion technologies release the renewable energy in the form of heat or electricity and can be converted into another form such as bio fuel and combustible bio gas..What are those technologies?

We cannot stop the generation of wastes, but we should manage the generated waste. If you look back in this thread, there is a mention about the use of methane which can be generated just as we do in small scale biomass plants. But for that, waste separation should be done, bio-degradable wastes should be separated from their counterparts. The seperation cannot be done at the dumpyard, it should be done by the people who generate the waste. Yes, the common man. Everyday, a house creates 1-4kg of wastes, out of which, a major part is biodegradable, and methane rich. Methane is a natural gas, use it in an I-C engine and you get mechanical motion to generate electricity, use it in boilers, and you generate steam, and electricity again, use it for cooking, use it in the CNG vehicles, where-ever you think of, use it.

@Van helsing, how far did u and your team of engineers think about the avoiding of CO2 and release O2? Can you share something to all of us? May be we can help too!

Yes you are right segregation of waste has to be done by us. But is methane released by the waste in enough quantities to be useful as a fuel?Also methane is a combustible gas like hydrogen. So separate specifications of engines will be required I think...plz correct me if I'm wrong.

From the wastes around you(that is, if you are in Mumbai), you can have a power house. Don't worry about the quantity. There should be seperate specifications for the engine which uses hydrogen, may be. But it is just a natural gas. From the layman's point of view(which I possess, I don't know anything about engines to comment), any petrol engine which is capable of using CNG or LPG can be used. I would like to hear comments from mechanical engineers and automobile engineers on this.

@aj- You are right buddy. Even I stay in Mumbai so I have a fair idea of the amount of wastage generated in Mumbai. Just travel by the local trains and we realise that we are living amidst a great garbage stockpile. If by some way we are able to implement your idea & convert all this waste into equivalent energy I think we'll be able to run Mumbai's local trains for another year or so. Anyways let us not limit this discussion to a paticular city. Why wait for the garbage to decompose and release methane?There are other harmful effects of allowing huge garbage piles to rot(read harmful diseases)Also the emission of methane has to be done in a controlled manner as methane in concentrated quantities is a fire hazard.
By some way we need to reduce the amount of substances in this garbage which are not completely combustible. This way we'll take care of the envirionmental factor.

Emission of methane is not a hazard because methane is combustible, but it is a hazard because it is a green house gas more dangerous than CO2. We abuse, hit on the heads, lock out, burn down factories (and people owning them) which let out chlorine, CO2. Before doing that, why don't we stop the accumulation of wastes?