What happens when supply is given to a permanent magnet?

CEans, I have a crazy doubt

What will happen if the supply is given directly to the permanent magnet? Posted in: #Coffee Room

You mean that you are going to wound wire around magnet and then give supply?

Or do you want to give direct supply? In second case I think nothing will happen. I do not know much but nothing will happen, I think.

Yeah no wounding of wire.

I do not think anything will happen, unless there is a coil there won't be any kind of electrically induced magnetic field nor do I think it will inhibit the magnets field. Someone with a chemistry background may be able to answer this question better.

Well, that's what is happening in the case of electric bell or dynamo... It goes forward if positive and goes back if negative...

The electric bell or dynamo function off electromagnets which in its most basic form, is a coil of wire wrapped around an iron core which produces the magnetic field, permanent magnets are not used let alone have voltage put through them.

everett.pattison

The electric bell or dynamo function off electromagnets which in its most basic form, is a coil of wire wrapped around an iron core which produces the magnetic field, permanent magnets are not used let alone have voltage put through them.

Permanent Magnet is used in these cases for getting repulsion!

That is not an electromagnet though. There is no voltage being applied to it as the original poster was asking. That system is used to create voltage/current.

Man! Only when both permanent and elecromagnet are together, dynamo or motor works! Don't you know that?

You're not listening to what I'm saying, the original question is what happens when you apply voltage to a permanent magnet. Never in any of those applications do you apply voltage to a permanent magnet.

So you mean to say, applying voltage to the magnet and not to a coil and wrapping it on a magnet! Right? If this is the case, then the magnet itself is a conductor performing a short circuit... 😀

praveenscience

So you mean to say, applying voltage to the magnet and not to a coil and wrapping it on a magnet! Right? If this is the case, then the magnet itself is a conductor performing a short circuit... 😀

You are right.
If it is a metallic magnet (AlNiCO for example), it is like any other conductor and will carry a current. This will create a magnetic field around the magnet whose sign will depend on the direction of current according to Fleming's Rule. This may enhance or detract from the permanent magnet's own field if a DC. If AC the effect will be cyclic at the frequency of the supply. If it is a ceramic magnet it will not conduct.

Biormanai

praveenscience

So you mean to say, applying voltage to the magnet and not to a coil and wrapping it on a magnet! Right? If this is the case, then the magnet itself is a conductor performing a short circuit... 😀

Yes, that is what 'dileep k' was trying to ask, not talking about electric bells and dynamos.

bioramani

You are right.
If it is a metallic magnet (AlNiCO for example), it is like any other conductor and will carry a current. This will create a magnetic field around the magnet whose sign will depend on the direction of current according to Fleming's Rule. This may enhance or detract from the permanent magnet's own field if a DC. If AC the effect will be cyclic at the frequency of the supply. If it is a ceramic magnet it will not conduct.

Biormanai

Magnet can only be Iron (Fe) right??? And even a kid knows that Iron is a good conductor of electricity. Then, it is evident that it makes a short circuit. What is ceramic magnet then?

By the way, your signature is wrong! 😔

praveenscience

Magnet can only be Iron (Fe) right??? And even a kid knows that Iron is a good conductor of electricity. Then, it is evident that it makes a short circuit. What is ceramic magnet then? By the way, your signature is wrong! 😔

As Shakespeare (according to some die hard Tamils, he was a Tamil called ஜெகசிற்பியன், who migrated to London!) said, 'what's in a name?'

Magnets can be made out of any ferromagnetic material.
Ceramic Magnets

Ceramic ones are electrical insulators.

Bioramani
(made sure of that!)

bioramani

As Shakespeare (according to some die hard Tamils, he was a Tamil called ஜெகசிற்பியன், who migrated to London!) said, 'what's in a name?'

Magnets can be made out of any ferromagnetic material.
Ceramic Magnets

Ceramic ones are electrical insulators.

Bioramani
(made sure of that!)

Thank you sir... Learnt something new... I too had a magnet which was very flexible, and am damn sure it is not Iron! 😛 Would it be ceramic then???

praveenscience

Thank you sir... Learnt something new... I too had a magnet which was very flexible, and am damn sure it is not Iron! 😛 Would it be ceramic then???

It must be one of the magnets made of ceramic powder in a flexible polymer matrix, commonly used as promotional material (Fridge stickers) or presentation graphics.

Bioramani

i think its polarities might change due to the electric current..

amar.amar

i think its polarities might change due to the electric current..

Hoi! Where are polarities coming in magnets???

it has the poles naa north and south!!

amar.amar

it has the poles naa north and south!!

Man! These permanent poles never change for sure!!! 😲

bioramani

You are right.
If it is a metallic magnet (AlNiCO for example), it is like any other conductor and will carry a current. This will create a magnetic field around the magnet whose sign will depend on the direction of current according to Fleming's Rule. This may enhance or detract from the permanent magnet's own field if a DC. If AC the effect will be cyclic at the frequency of the supply. If it is a ceramic magnet it will not conduct.

Biormanai

Why metallic conduct and Ceramic magnets don't conduct. Where is the energy going in ceramic magnets?

dileep k

Why metallic conduct and Ceramic magnets don't conduct. Where is the energy going in ceramic magnets?

They are not metals... Only metals are capable of conducting electricity... 😀

due to the application of electrical energy on permenent magnet ,it will lossse or reduces the magnitic strenth.......

venueee

due to the application of electrical energy on permenent magnet ,it will lossse or reduces the magnitic strenth.......

Before that it should conduct the electrical energy right?

praveenscience

They are not metals... Only metals are capable of conducting electricity... 😀

Hey that is a question to Bioramani sir's Answer.Metallic magnets will conduct and I wanted to know why ceramic magnets don't conduct. If they conduct then where's the energy going.

@ Praveen I think we can safely jump into the water with an electric wire in it now 😛

Why? You wanna die??? 😛

@Praveen Noo.I don't wanna die and I cannot die because only metals can conduct. 😛

Dude you said tying up a wire... Wire conducts... 😀

hahahaha guys inside wire we are having a conductor observe it
as well gold, copper such metals are good conductors due to less availability we use some combination alloy materials for transmission so we use them for transmission

narayana murthy

hahahaha guys inside wire we are having a conductor observe it
as well gold, copper such metals are good conductors due to less availability we use some combination alloy materials for transmission so we use them for transmission

Yes,,, So???

praveenscience

Yes,,, So???

wire conducts

That's what even I said... 😛

praveenscience

That's what even I said... 😛

but thats not concentrated with you praveen hahaha
ok @dileep: ceramic magnets means farrite right they are materials which gets energies when others gives power to energize
i think this may help here

narayana murthy

ceramic magnets means farrite right they are materials which gets energies when others gives power to energize

That's a new fact here... Thanx... And Dil is always thinking of dying, isn't it???

praveenscience

That's a new fact here... Thanx... And Dil is always thinking of dying, isn't it???

hahaha may be but he always saying i don't want to die so pity
just kidding

narayana murthy

hahaha may be but he always saying i don't want to die so pity
just kidding

I seriously don't understand how much we are TJing... 😛 Yeah, that's the talent of Dil!

praveenscience

I seriously don't understand how much we are TJing... 😛 Yeah, that's the talent of Dil!

hehe You TJing me 😛 😁

No one can Tease Don. 😎

@NM Thanks NM. 😀

dileep k

I wanted to know why ceramic magnets don't conduct. If they conduct then where's the energy going. @ Praveen I think we can safely jump into the water with an electric wire in it now 😛

Dileep we need free electrons (or 'holes' as in semiconductors) to conduct electricity. Ceramics do not have them. So they are insulators.

You may be right about jumping into a pool with a live wire dipped in it. Provided the the person jumping in is not connected with a good ground wire, no current passes through the person. One can hang from a 11 KV live wire safely so long as he is isolated. Human body does have some conductivity. On a wet surface 220 V can be fatal. More than a few microns directly through the heart can kill.

dileep k

CEans, I have a crazy doubt

What will happen if the supply is given directly to the permanent magnet?

It depends on the exact situation.
Generally, unless the current is strong enough to cook the magnet, the magnet doesn't change.
The current on the other hand, may take a more curved route through the magnet, due to the magnetic field (magnetic fields push current around).
Is that what you were asking about?

bioramani

Dileep we need free electrons (or 'holes' as in semiconductors) to conduct electricity. Ceramics do not have them. So they are insulators.

You may be right about jumping into a pool with a live wire dipped in it. Provided the the person jumping in is not connected with a good ground wire, no current passes through the person. One can hang from a 11 KV live wire safely so long as he is isolated. Human body does have some conductivity. On a wet surface 220 V can be fatal. More than a few microns directly through the heart can kill.

Your swimming pool example is so fatal as there must be any ground contact in the swimming pool as swimming pools are concrete erected on bare ground. But your answer is so informative.

Coming back to the question.. if you don't mind spoiling the fun.
The question is what happens when supply is given to a permanent magnet.
The answer is, "depends".
It depends on the material of which the magnet is made of. If it is a metal, metals like cobalt, nickel, iron etc.(ferromagnetic materials are magnets... that is what they taught me.), it will conduct a current just as it conducts in a normal conductor. If it is not a conducting material, well, it simply won't.
Now, talking about the change of poles and things. If you observe closely in a magnet(well not with your eyes, I am talking about the atomic-subatomic levels), each atom acts as a magnet. All those atoms align in exactly the same way (ideally) to create a large magnet(large enough for you to see, touch and use). The strength of the magnet depends on how many of these atoms are aligned.
Now, if you can use some force to 'divide and rule', you can alter the magnetic status, I mean, the polarity of the magnet. If the voltage you are applying is such that the direction of the magnetic field induced by it is against the magnetic field of the magnet, and is higher in value of the same, then the polarity of the magnet also changes. Please note that this will happen if and only if the magnet conducts electricity.
Hope I have clarified your doubts.
P.S.- Moderators, Please do think about doing a bit more moderation, Clean up this thread of unnecessary posts, please.

@ AJ

As moderators we can only delete spam. If users dont want to hold the discussion in a relevant method, mods are not responsible for editing the thread as well the users are all regular users . We do warn when it is needed or some one is spamming.
Though it is responsibily of MODs to keep the palce clean, is is as well the responsiblity of CEans not to soil it. As someone rightly said -" Even a daimond cannot be found in a ton of coal".

durga

@ AJ

As moderators we can only delete spam. If users don't want to hold the discussion in a relevant method, mods are not responsible for editing the thread as well the users are all regular users . We do warn when it is needed or some one is spamming.
Though it is responsibly of Mods to keep the place clean, is is as well the responsibility of CEans not to soil it. As someone rightly said -" Even a diamond cannot be found in a ton of coal".

(I know you all are busy, but...) At least when people post something, the Mods can actually pm them and ask them to either edit the post or ask them if Mods can delete them if the posting member also feels that the post is not relevant to the topic.

@ Durga,
There are many simple posts in this thread which can be deleted and no one would mind it. Let alone responsibility and other things. No one will mind it. Please delete unwanted posts. (Including this one. Sorry for spamming) 😀

Thanks Aj. You surely had clarified my doubt. 😀

@Aj: Thanks Aj I will think twice to post something after this but don't worry moderators will definitely do their moderation. 😀

@Ishan: Come on Ishan don't spam yourself man just PM a moderator. 😛 😀

To answer the question that was asked in the headline. try this little experiment.

You need: 

1 arc lighter (also known as Tesla-Lighters, USB-lighters, etc.) for cigarettes

1 tiny neodymium magnet (or take just one of the cheap magnets which are in the carton of the cigarette paper boxes to keep them closed)

Put the magnet on a table (or any other surface of your choice). Hold the lighter close to the magnet, so that the magnet is in range of the electric arc (~5mm), ideally you position the magnet between the 2 electrodes of the lighter. 

Activate lighter. I kept it on for about 10 seconds.

Results: (number 3 was for me something new I learned)

1. The electric arc went from electrode to magnet and left magnet on the other side to connect to the second electrode on the shortest possible distance. Like expected. 

2. After 10 seconds of watching the electric arc I took the lighter away and touched the magnet to see if it heated up. Like expected it did not heat up the magnet. That's, because the magnet is metallic and for that reason a good conductor and arc lighters don't use much energy. As better a material conducts, as less heat is produced.

3. After I did this the magnet was only a little piece of metal, demagnetization was caused by the current I persume. I'm usually more on data science, I am not a physician, so for more details about this effect do what I do: Google it and make experiments. I tried it on a few other magnets which I found in my house, demagnetization always worked. Measuring and comparing the magnetic fields of the demagnetized magnets with the sensors of my phone and some apps that are made for this purpose there was no difference in the strength and direction of the magnetic fields between the former magnets and other non-magnetic metall stuff in my house like scissors, spoons, paper clips, screws. 

(So, if cigarettes would be good conductors, it would not be possible to use arc lighters to burn them. And If you want to make your headphones useless, just use an app lighter on their magnets. Good to know.)

So, is this effect used also in larger scales? Like for example in industries where metal needs to be demagnetized for some reason? 

I will try to see what happens, if I use it on a larger magnet from my old Speakers soon.

Sorry for my poor English, I tried my best.