CrazyEngineers Archive
Old, but evergreen and popular discussions on CrazyEngineers, presented to you in read-only mode.
@Koushal Patel • 19 Dec, 2014 • 2 likes
Raghuram Rajan, the Governerof RBI forcasted about the recession in IT in the year 2008. At that time, his statement went un-noticed.

2014, August I guess, a random article in newspaper says, Raghuram Rajan again was pretty confident about a situation, which is called recession. I also read a reply to that article, NaMo's policy will take care of it, if such situation comes.

Today, I heard, one of the biggest IT giants in the world, ---- will lay off approx 25000 employee. Reason is as expected - you do not cope up with us.

Simple reason - Let a fresher and a 10 years employee work on the same project. Both were assigned to do the same work. Both get 25$ per hour from clients as billing (This money goes to ---). Fresher's salary is 20k to 26k, and person with 10 yrs exp is in lacs. So, now --- says, why to pay a 10 yrs exp more, when a fresher can save so much of money for us!!

Second thought - Many associates sitting idle for a long time!! You can not give them a project. Cilprit is you but termination is for employee.

Last thought - What will happen to a person if he/she gets terminated. He is the sole bread owner of his/her family. He is having a loan. He is terminated at an age of 31 or 32, and after that, unfortunatly,he can not apply for any govt. Job.

I have nothing to do with the process in --- and neither I am against of laying of under performance employees, let them go, but a mere talk, I have seen people getting termination later though they have been serving good for the company - where are the so called ethics of ----? Many more companies did this in last recession. Lets see, what happens next. --- has cut the ribbon for the employee torture program.
@Kaustubh Katdare • 19 Dec, 2014 The reason isn't 'you don't cope up with us'. The reason is that they are a publicly listed company that must act in the interest of the shareholders and show the business as growing and profit making. Employee salaries are the biggest 'costs' any company has to incur and laying off employees helps them get the profit margins back. I think that's the scene with most of the IT services companies.

From the employee perspective - it's devastating. Especially if you've EMIs. One must always prepare for such situations well in advance because there's no such job in the world that guarantees employment.

For once, I won't put the entire blame on the company. They make no promise to give you a project and to take your responsibility when they offered a job.

Layoff shouldn't be taken in a negative way. The news of layoff is a strong reminder to several people that they need to take care of their finances. It's also an opportunity to reshape one's career and find out ways to secure one's feature.
@iamanands • 19 Dec, 2014 • 2 likes IMO, layoff process won't affect skilled labor. The most affected ones will be those who sit idle in a company with multiple years of experience, doing the so-called project management. Project management is an absolute need in any company, but as we see the recent trends in Indian IT industry, start-ups have proved how successful their companies are running with developers acting as testers/managers, resource managers acting as business analysts/client ROs, et cetera. Gone are the days when people cries off seeing their termination letter. People are more concerned to meet/exceed their life standards, keeping an extra eye on the rubbish thing which may happen in their future.

I know people who got terminated from Oracle, Bengaluru as a part of their 'Employee Torture Program', but soon within a week from the official notification, they got similar positions in companies like Motorola,Philips with a parallel pay package. The rest of them, who thinks my role in IT is over, will be left sucking their thumbs. Companies run for profit, not for taking care of their employees' social life and situation. A few companies does that, but it has got to be their second priority to make a happy smile on their employees' faces.

Guess, it helps to draw a parallel.
@Kaustubh Katdare • 19 Dec, 2014 @iamanands - Managers are seldom fired. I don't know why - but that's how the things are. It's always the lower base (engineers) that get the axe. It's stupid; but a fact of life.
@Koushal Patel • 19 Dec, 2014
Kaustubh Katdare
@iamanands - Managers are seldom fired. I don't know why - but that's how the things are. It's always the lower base (engineers) that get the axe. It's stupid; but a fact of life.
True..
@Somesh Diwanji • 20 Dec, 2014 TCS with more than 3Lakh+ employee, majority of them are fresher or associate with below 2yr exp. is also the company with highest number of employee on bench in Indian IT industry.
During last recession(2008) TCS stayed strong and firm with their business and against lay-off as other IT companies did, TCS had recruited the people.
From last few years, with average profit of 5000 Cr per quarter , I don't think company has shaken business.
But this is IT, every employee has to prove themselves as critical resource or at least asset to project. Company can't assure employment for non performing associates.
This lay off is mainly for the associates above ITA (IT analyst) post. So we can understand, associates must involved in either of responsibilities.
But little good news here is, Lay off is not for other IT companies as in 2008 where every company were in process of sacking their employees.
@Kaustubh Katdare • 20 Dec, 2014
Somesh Diwanji
But this is IT, every employee has to prove themselves as critical resource or at least asset to project. Company can't assure employment for non performing associates.
This lay off is mainly for the associates above ITA (IT analyst) post.
The question is - how do the employees who have never been given a chance to prove themselves do justice to their roles and salaries? It's the responsibility of the company to ensure that they allot projects to the employees.

All the big IT services companies in India must have some part of their workforce sitting on bench just to show to the clients their readiness for accepting new projects; and start executing them immediately. It does go against the careers of the fresh graduates without any project for ~2 years.

I personally believe that TCS won't layoff employees. But remember - it's no longer under Mr. Ratan Tata. It's the TATA run by a new head and a lot of water has flown under the bridge since 2008.
@Somesh Diwanji • 21 Dec, 2014
Kaustubh Katdare
The question is - how do the employees who have never been given a chance to prove themselves do justice to their roles and salaries? It's the responsibility of the company to ensure that they allot projects to the employees..
So can't we say this lay off creates opportunity for those willing freshers.
As company was not able to provide projects to freshers, so neither their are targeted in "Employee Torture program". During their bench period, freshers are flooded with different L&D program;they can make use of it.
Yes, I agree that there is no Rantan Tata at the top. But even we can say company hit with excessive recruit program.
@Anoop Kumar • 21 Dec, 2014 I don't think it's recession, I see lots oh hiring happening these days. May be it's only TCS, they need to show profit.
Agree with,
Kaustubh Katdare
Managers are seldom fired
@Anil Jain • 21 Dec, 2014 TCS would be laying out thousands in 2015 that's just a half truth.
TCS is hiring few thousands as well that's the other half of it.

@Koushal Patel explained some dollar mathematics, but that is again not a complete picture. In most of the companies, billing is staggered as per the experience bucket; also many a times companies do understand about the quality delivered by fresher and a 10 year experience guy. So profit and business equation is not that simple to understand.

Company like TCS who have employee strength more than 300000+, have many employees that are under-performing, few are the ones that works on obsolete technology (Though its not there fault, their fault is not attempting to upgrade their skills). Why any company would invest on those set of folks?? I agree there are a bunch of folks that are performing fairly good and would be terminated just because there projects are over, and some morons sitting in management tables are not taking care of them. This can happen anywhere, and those handful folks would surely be able to get another decent ones with-in 2-3 months to take care of there commitments.

However, I must say that the way Indian software market is growing with few lakhs engineers adding up every year, the bigger recession cycles is round the corner and am sure the bubble will be blown some time soon (may be 5-10 years).
@Kaustubh Katdare • 22 Dec, 2014 Okay, we've an update here from Reddit. TCS seems to be actually firing employees in bulk. Someone posted the following letter on Reddit. I've absolutely no clue whether this is actually the letter issued to the employee whose job was terminated. Take a look -

TCS-Layoffs

The letter seems to be issued by Thomas V. Simon, VP of Human Resources at TCS. I tried to check his LinkedIn profile and couldn't find one; which makes me believe that the letter isn't very authentic.

Various blogs are hinting at layoff targeted at Assistant Consultants, Project Managers and also higher level managers who haven't shown performance improvement in the last two years. While I post this, there's also news circulating that the company will be hiring ~35,000 fresh graduate engineers in the coming season.

If true, we've a situation here, folks!
@Kaustubh Katdare • 22 Dec, 2014 Update: Published a post on possible career opportunities for those who've been laid off: https://www.crazyengineers.com/threads/career-opportunities-for-employees-whove-been-fired.77845/ . I hope it will be useful.
@Koushal Patel • 22 Dec, 2014
Kaustubh Katdare
Okay, we've an update here from Reddit. TCS seems to be actually firing employees in bulk. Someone posted the following letter on Reddit. I've absolutely no clue whether this is actually the letter issued to the employee whose job was terminated. Take a look -

TCS-Layoffs

The letter seems to be issued by Thomas V. Simon, VP of Human Resources at TCS. I tried to check his LinkedIn profile and couldn't find one; which makes me believe that the letter isn't very authentic.

Various blogs are hinting at layoff targeted at Assistant Consultants, Project Managers and also higher level managers who haven't shown performance improvement in the last two years. While I post this, there's also news circulating that the company will be hiring ~35,000 fresh graduate engineers in the coming season.

If true, we've a situation here, folks!
Hi @Kaustubh Katdare - I wrote this article after watching the attached image in FB and doing analysis with peers!! 😀 One point I learnt is - Victims are those who are sitting idle for long time, and also many managerial level people. So I take my words back to put the 100% blame on the company. Apologies!!

Awesome thing also observed - Nobody is asking to their respective managers about onsite or project change. All that they want is "Ye aag thandi ho jae!!" 😀
@Anoop Kumar • 22 Dec, 2014 • 1 like
Kaustubh Katdare
The letter seems to be issued by Thomas V. Simon, VP of Human Resources at TCS. I tried to check his LinkedIn profile and couldn't find one; which makes me believe that the letter isn't very authentic.
Name is legit. (Not everyone uses social media☕)
Ref. The Hindu., See photo description.
Anyway, If you work in any company and not contributing for more than 1-2 month. you should be worry about it. Either you are eligible enough or at wrong place at wrong time.
Also, it's not always, employee fault. Some companies are evil enough to fire in bulk to achieve fraction of profit. Because they know, if they just whisper Java/.Net they can able to get stampede of job seeker.
@vinuchel24 • 22 Dec, 2014 • 2 likes The most going to be affected are the so called "project managers" in all projects. In my 3 years of IT experience I have seen both the good managers who completely take the ownership of the project and are so involved in it , and the bad managers who don't even know proper english or email writing skills whose main job is forwarding the escalation mail and appreciation mail (Commonly used content of mail include " FYI ", "Looping xx team for their kind info" and "Please do the needful")
These people who don't contribute should be essentially fired.

(Lucky I made the painful but worth transition from IT to banking now 😀 )
@Kaustubh Katdare • 22 Dec, 2014 Well, if anyone's sitting on-bench for more than a year and has not switched to a new job is definitely at fault. I'd begin bugging project manager if I was not allotted a project in > 3 months of sitting on bench. If anyone's gone into comfort zone - then they're at fault for sure.

You already are aware of the realities in the IT industry. I feel sorry for those who get fired. But as I wrote in my earlier post, it's going to be a blessing in disguise. Make the best use of it!

PS: I also hope that other major IT companies don't start copying TCS. That'd be a major disaster - and will affect the real estate industry for sure.
@Walter Miranda • 22 Dec, 2014 This was quite surprising news. I have worked for a few years with TCS software engineers and I can say it has been a very good experience. The problem is that early on the standout engineers got their H1-B Visas and were able to come to the U.S.. It seems like there has been political pressure to lower the # of Visas. As the guys left off-shore see their counterparts in the U.S. on Visas; they get fed up with TCS and go to another company. Then TCS is starting to feel some of the heat that U.S. companies felt in the late 90's. They have some great employees but from what I have seen their management does not go overboard trying to make their employees feel valued. The recent data breaches have also made companies weary of sending intellectual property offshore. It's not so much that they don't trust TCS as it's harder to govern and have compliance with a 3rd party vendor; especially when so many U.S. companies have some of their good engineers who are off-shore at TCS. The real sweet spot for TCS is being able to provide the after-hours support to relieve U.S. engineers of tiring overnight work. The achilles heal is having to send over 1 engineer to the U.S for every 4 engineers that are off-shore. The 2nd achilles heal is having one SME for every 4 engineers; the SME who ends up being in the U.S. will carry the load of what 4 of his counterparts will do off-shore. Still like some posters here, I don't think TCS will be laying off any solid engineers; the demand is so high in U.S. and India that employers are begging for good software engineers.
@Walter Miranda • 22 Dec, 2014
vinuchel24
The most going to be affected are the so called "project managers" in all projects. In my 3 years of IT experience I have seen both the good managers who completely take the ownership of the project and are so involved in it , and the bad managers who don't even know proper english or email writing skills whose main job is forwarding the escalation mail and appreciation mail (Commonly used content of mail include " FYI ", "Looping xx team for their kind info" and "Please do the needful")
These people who don't contribute should be essentially fired.

(Lucky I made the painful but worth transition from IT to banking now 😀 )
I have seen some awesome TCS PM's; guys that I was really blown away by their organization, presentation, and leadership skills. Then I have seen others who like you said are not very good managers. It almost seems like they have some type of political connection. These are guys who could care less about the companies project and it comes across they are only concerned about putting people in the right place so TCS can bill X # of dollars. I kind of see these guys as building a house of cards; then when the good engineers start leaving it will come crashing down.
@Walter Miranda • 22 Dec, 2014
Anil Jain
TCS would be laying out thousands in 2015 that's just a half truth.
TCS is hiring few thousands as well that's the other half of it.

@Koushal Patel explained some dollar mathematics, but that is again not a complete picture. In most of the companies, billing is staggered as per the experience bucket; also many a times companies do understand about the quality delivered by fresher and a 10 year experience guy. So profit and business equation is not that simple to understand.

Company like TCS who have employee strength more than 300000+, have many employees that are under-performing, few are the ones that works on obsolete technology (Though its not there fault, their fault is not attempting to upgrade their skills). Why any company would invest on those set of folks?? I agree there are a bunch of folks that are performing fairly good and would be terminated just because there projects are over, and some morons sitting in management tables are not taking care of them. This can happen anywhere, and those handful folks would surely be able to get another decent ones with-in 2-3 months to take care of there commitments.

However, I must say that the way Indian software market is growing with few lakhs engineers adding up every year, the bigger recession cycles is round the corner and am sure the bubble will be blown some time soon (may be 5-10 years).
This will be interesting to watch. I keep wondering how long India can continue their GDP growth. One reason I can see is they have outstanding engineers that work will within the U.S. corporate systems. The U.S. seems like it could be decades from closing the gap on the engineering shortage.
@Ankita Katdare • 22 Dec, 2014 Thanks for initiating this discussion @Koushal Patel
On some websites that number has been raised to 30-35,000.
If indeed as many managers and consultants are getting fired as are programmers or developers or technical personnel, this is a really sad news. As we all know, most project managers had to quit their technical skills to choose managerial positions. And such managers are a treasure only for MNCs. Startups or SMBs don't have much demand for these people.

All my friends in TCS stuck to the company because of the 'job security' tag that the company promised for all these years. I am really worried about them now.

Also, saw many discussions on social media on the topic of "Is IT landscape in India changing?" What is that all about?
@vinuchel24 • 23 Dec, 2014 Definitely, TCS was supposed to be like a govt IT company offering job security to even the non performers. But this news even though unexpected is not surprising. Whatever be the skill, experience, knowledge, at the end of the day all these IT sweatshops care is about bringing down per person cost to improve their profit. Having done timesheet management for some time, I was really surprised to see the amount in dollars charged by my company to the client for 1 hr of me and my teammates work. (Roughly 10 hrs is equivalent to our 1 month salary). This is still higher for the lead, manager roles.
Every IT project can be precisely described as a pyramid with the number of people in the higher echelons strictly declining. So as experience increases, higher roles and responsibilities but higher CTC also makes companies reject people with higher experience.
Some intelligent HR people do shortlist bright programmers/analysts and entrust the additional roles of team lead, project management to them in the name of "exposure" and handling the "next level". So the vacancies of the PM further reduces ..
@RamaKrishna Prasad Kosuru • 24 Dec, 2014 People who are drawing higher salaries wont able to get a job.They need to work as freelancer .Myself unemployed from 2 years after working as project Manager in a IT company
@Anoop Kumar • 24 Dec, 2014 Question: What is firing probabilities of these kind in Product based companies? or this is only service based ?
@Kaustubh Katdare • 24 Dec, 2014
Anoop Kumar
Question: What is firing probabilities of these kind in Product based companies? or this is only service based ?
Product based companies fire too! It's got nothing to do with what kind of business the company is. The trend is more seen in publicly listed companies though - the ones that are always under pressure to keep performing and show profits. That's why I said, it's no longer Ratan Tata's company; and cultures have changed!

Perform or you'll get fired! That's the simple rule.

That's one of the main reasons I've began appreciating the strict hiring policies put in place by companies like Google. They ensure that the per employee revenue is huge so that they minimize the chances of non-performing employees and the overall revenue. Again, there are companies that will use the excuse of 'market recession' to get rid of the employees they'd otherwise find uncomfortable to work with.
@MeetFireWIthFire • 24 Dec, 2014 These layoffs mean nothing if we realize to see people in their respective categories.
a) People WHO_GETS_BUSINESS: These are smart folks. These people will always be in demand and if we happen to work under these folks, more often than not, one would learn the essentials to go up the ladder. As these folks are already smart, all of them (or most of them) would not feel insecure about their position and works at the notion of meeting the lion in its den.
b) People WHO_IMPLEMENTS: These are also skillful folks on par with people who get BUSINESS. Skillful implementers innovate and ensure they stay relevant and sellable at any time. These folks also would not feel insecure and if we happen to work under them, it is rest assured that we are most likely to get inspired from them.
c) PEOPLE_WHO_GETS_THE_JOB_DONE: These are the dangerous folks. They get the job done. By whom… By others… If they get credit it is purely POLITICS. They don’t know how to get it (business) or how to implement it (business). If an organization keeps their count to the bare minimum, then there will be no politics. Well the productivity increases when these people are removed from the organization. One way to remove them is to encourage more automation in the way of standardization. Or we could encourage folks to be evangelist who speaks to two folks (who_gets_business and who_implements) in their terms. Evangelists are even talented folks who are a bit of both (who_gets and who_implements)

There could be some good people losing the job. But any way they will be able to market themselves though it is completely unacceptable if they fire good people.
@Anoop Kumar • 24 Dec, 2014
MeetFireWIthFire
These layoffs mean nothing if we realize to see people in their respective categories.....
One of bitter truth.
Seems you belongs to either DB or PHP side 😉
@vinuchel24 • 25 Dec, 2014 But mostly I have heard that people from tier 1 companies, even if laid off would be absorbed by smaller/less popular companies simply, for the brand value of the company. Infosys, Mindtree, Wipro etcc are service companies with most brand value (my opinion). an experience certificate from all these companies would be a real resume booster
@Kaustubh Katdare • 25 Dec, 2014 @vinuchel24 - I doubt it. When Yahoo fired their employees, the startup companies were joyous that they could get the guys with product mindset for a lower price (if I'm using right words). I doubt the MNC guys will have the mindset (and even the skillsset) to get easily absorbed by startup companies.

But I really hope that the guys find jobs as soon as possible.
@Anoop Kumar • 25 Dec, 2014
vinuchel24
an experience certificate from all these companies would be a real resume booster
May be, to get only the interview call but then, interviewer have high hopes in discussion.
@Kaustubh Katdare • 29 Dec, 2014 An interesting update:

Chennai based group called "Young Tamil Nadu Movement" is considering a legal action against TCS for sacking employees. The group seems to have been approached by about 120 of the employees sacked by TCS in the recent times. The group says that TCS sacked employees by branding them as 'Non Performers'. Several of these people belong to middle and senior management.

TCS has said that it's a performance driven company and workforce optimisation is a continuous process (read: employees are fired continuously but not in masses). It's nothing out of ordinary that this is done.
@Anoop Kumar • 29 Dec, 2014
Kaustubh Katdare
TCS has said that it's a performance driven company and workforce optimisation is a continuous process
Yeah.. Nice job. fire 68 employee everyday and achieve the 25K mark 👎. Expand HR department bigger than IT and operations.
@Saandeep Sreerambatla • 29 Dec, 2014 I wonder why make a fuss out of this?
There are many reasons why company fires employees. I think people should be smart enough to get into projects and learn something.

At any stage in career if you are not learning anything, then you are in trouble.
@Saandeep Sreerambatla • 29 Dec, 2014 Coming back to one of the question posted by someone with respect to Product based companies.

There is a company called CA. They have many products, and when a new ceo joined the company they decided to stop supporting few products because they are not generating any revenues.

There was a mass firing. Low to mid level engineers are absorbed by other teams, where as seniors like Managers and Architects are asked to leave by paying then 4 to 6 month salary.

Most of them are smart enough to get job elsewhere.
@MeetFireWIthFire • 29 Dec, 2014
Anoop Kumar
Yeah.. Nice job. fire 68 employee everyday and achieve the 25K mark 👎. Expand HR department bigger than IT and operations.
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/cn...ears-no-pink-slips-for-employees_1263016.html
@Ankita Katdare • 29 Dec, 2014
MeetFireWIthFire
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/cn...ears-no-pink-slips-for-employees_1263016.html
Big buzz words on the link. Workforce optimisation, involuntary attrition etc.
When they write "This is nothing out of the ordinary or a special situation for us to comment about." - Does that mean thousands get fired all the time to make way for the fresher thousands? Or am I reading too much into it?
@Saandeep Sreerambatla • 30 Dec, 2014 • 1 like The link says many things, and its all true. One thing is certain there will be lay offs or asking people to leave in any company and its quite common.

And yes, because TCS has too many people the number seems to be higher.

I personally know that in the current company I am working, people are not asked to leave directly but the management removes team whom they are actually leading, and will make them individual contributor and if results after that are not good then they are asked to leave.

About 60% of people if team is clipped they themselves look out and leave, 20% work well as ICs and they still live in company and another 20% will be asked to leave.

Now if you take this 20% in non-performers in TCS then the number will be high!
@Vinavu Combats Layoff • 03 Jan, 2015 • 1 like This layoff is nothing about performance. People who got consecutive three "A" band also thrown out.
First of all appraisal system has many flaws. It has no transparency.
@Vinavu Combats Layoff • 03 Jan, 2015 • 1 like Employees are Striking Back in Chennai and banglore. Congratulation to those Employees.
@Kaustubh Katdare • 03 Jan, 2015
Vinavu Combats Layoff
People who got consecutive three "A" band also thrown out.
I doubt it. What'd be the compelling reason for any company to justify firing of the top performing employees? If that's actually the case, I'm sure the reason would have been something different.

I'm 100% sure they didn't fire employees randomly.
@Vinavu Combats Layoff • 03 Jan, 2015
Kaustubh Katdare
I doubt it. What'd be the compelling reason for any company to justify firing of the top performing employees? If that's actually the case, I'm sure the reason would have been something different.

I'm 100% sure they didn't fire employees randomly.
It's not random. very well planned. First they fixed the numbers. Then setting criteria to cover the numbers.
RMGs are not allocating projects for AST and ASC.
TCS is setting a new trend. Recriut freshers, use them and thrown out at their 30's. There is no legal protection for employees in IT sector.
@Koushal Patel • 04 Jan, 2015 • 1 like an update -

Untitled
@AmitAmit • 10 Jan, 2015 • 3 likes TCS and companies of similar profile are Body Shops that hire students right before they even graduate in large volumes and "train" them, ship them as contractors to companies who are not able to find resources with required skill set.
These body shops do not want people with fat payslips as it contracts their margin, they need fresh graduates just out of college, milk them at their youth age and get then rid of them.
People come up with arguments saying without these BODY SHOPS there wouldn't be much opportunities. The truth is for people with good skills there is never any shortage of opportunities, in fact without these body shops people are much well of.

As we say: Anthya Kale Viparita Buddi, end of these body shops are near.
An Ex-Body shop employee
@Ankita Katdare • 08 Jan, 2016 • 1 like Very strong views put forth by @AmitAmit here and that's an alarming image shared by @Koushal Patel I am saddened by the fact that those outside the walls of the IT offices are not aware of what goes on inside. They are star-struck with the plush offices, the fat paycheques that won't get anywhere else (that easily) and the onsite opportunities that their cousins and friends got. I am not saying that it's bad for everyone, but isn't it very unfair when it happens to anyone in the company? When I bring this topic up, most of my friends argue that it isn't all bad, the naysayers are making an issue out of nothing. But isn't a layoff real and isn't it the worst when it happens to you. All you can do is cry foul.
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