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Should human cloning be legalized

Question asked by Kaustubh Katdare in #Coffee Room on Jul 21, 2008
Kaustubh Katdare
Kaustubh Katdare · Jul 21, 2008
CEO @ CrazyEngineers, TEDx Speaker, Guitarist
Most of us have debated on this topic with our friends. Now let's see what engineers from all over the world have to say about this topic! Posted in: #Coffee Room
Ashraf HZ
Ashraf HZ · Jul 21, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
Nope, it should not be legalized. It has quite a number of ethical implications. Perhaps "organ" cloning would make better sense for the sake of medical treatments.

I might draw fire by saying this, but quite a number of scientists have the "could we?" mindset, instead of "should we?". They leave the latter for engineers to deal with 😉
Kaustubh Katdare
Kaustubh Katdare · Jul 21, 2008
CEO @ CrazyEngineers, TEDx Speaker, Guitarist
"Curiosity" is the mother of all inventions - Big K 😁

Right said Ash, I vote for organ cloning. That would probably solve lot of organ transplant related problems.

For the debate's sake, don't you think we're shielding ourselves from some fantastic discoveries out there by not opting for human cloning?

ps: I'd certainly not like to have another Big K in the world 😁.
Ashraf HZ
Ashraf HZ · Jul 21, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
Ah.. human experimental testing? target practice by the military? I could think of more morbid things than good things 😛
sauravgoswami
sauravgoswami · Jul 22, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
Human cloning can be answers to many death-threathing deasese and ans to many cures,human cloning shd be done but in restricted form(i doubt if it possible),else population will surge inno time
Differential
Differential · Jul 23, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
I strongly oject this act due to following reasons !

-- Increase in World's population
-- Use of human clones as warrior (any many other objectionable purposes)
-- Ownership and hence dictatorship on clones
-- What do you do with defective clones ? Defect could be physical, emotional or anything !
-- We say we haven't discovered less than 1% of human body and trying to replicate it !

I would say, producing living beings is nature's job, let it only do the job !

--Differential
Kaustubh Katdare
Kaustubh Katdare · Jul 23, 2008
CEO @ CrazyEngineers, TEDx Speaker, Guitarist
Differential
-- We say we haven't discovered less than 1% of human body and trying to replicate it !
Well, in my opinion, we want to replicate human body because we know we can - even with that 1% of knowledge!

Its similar to "We climb the mountains because they are there!".


You've a very good points there -

-- Ownership and hence dictatorship on clones
-- What do you do with defective clones ? Defect could be physical, emotional or anything !
Needs a serious thought!
Mayur Pathak
Mayur Pathak · Jul 23, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
On one side we are trying to build a bicentennial man, on the other we are promoting human cloning. I don't vote for either.

I know its like climbing the mountains because they are there. But what for? Its like creating another Citibank, which is fraud.
Ashraf HZ
Ashraf HZ · Jul 23, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
I'm sure there are some who have vested interests in human cloning. There are many horrible but viable uses for clones. Differential mentioned "cloned warriors". Also, human clones can basically be a "simulation" of the real human. You don't have to make them 100% perfect. Give them all their vital organs, make them breathe, blink, etc. Just make sure they are "obedient" by altering some genes, and not reject any experimentation acting on them, etc.

I doubt research and investment into such possibilities are fully made public to be scrutinized, unfortunately. You'd think the military would declassify their most powerful weapons? We could only speculate and be "denied" by officials.

So, how would you stop human cloning? Will making it illegal effective enough?
sauravgoswami
sauravgoswami · Jul 23, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
I dont think so,secretly research on human cloning is still goin on,only way to stop is to find an alternative way,all-in-all human cloning aint helping humans much
Ashraf HZ
Ashraf HZ · Jul 23, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
sauravgoswami
I dont think so,secretly research on human cloning is still goin on,only way to stop is to find an alternative way,all-in-all human cloning aint helping humans much
You are right! Finding alternatives is the way to go.

Can you suggest some ways? Computer simulations and modeling have certainly made their impact. Of course, we still haven't reached the point in which they can perfectly simulate human behavior.. yet anyway. I wonder if they'd need to enhance the AI to match the human brain.. or just rely on number crunching techniques to hypothesize results.
sauravgoswami
sauravgoswami · Jul 23, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
AI is surely one answer,and human longivity will be limited too,we can also look at nanotechnology.
just2rock
just2rock · Jul 24, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
Cloning will be possible soon by 2050,as a separate Workshop will be formed by medical researchers for organ cloning(Tissue,heart etc) for medical benefits.But I strongly disagree if someone start cloning on DNA etc.that will start various problems immediately with its discovery in terms of Security & Safety of human privacy.
sauravgoswami
sauravgoswami · Jul 24, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
Exactly mate!!!but everything has its pros n cons,its upto you in what you focus on.e.g. Nuclear Energy
samarjeetsaigal
samarjeetsaigal · Jul 24, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
sauravgoswami
Exactly mate!!!but everything has its pros n cons,its upto you in what you focus on.e.g. Nuclear Energy
Yes ofcourse i agree that organ cloning should be done as it will benefit the human society in saving their lifes but human cloning is like losing your own lifes and last but not the least we can't break the rules of the nature....
sauravgoswami
sauravgoswami · Jul 24, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
Oh really!!..I wonder every now n then we are challenging nature its diffrent we havent succeded completely.....for e.g. artificial rain
gohm
gohm · Jul 24, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
Mankind is not advanced enough to handle cloning (many legal, social & moral issues to resolve). Smells like Pandora's box to me. Leave creation up to the higher power of your choice.
sauravgoswami
sauravgoswami · Jul 24, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
Man is known to strerch his limits,anyhow as long as human cloning is excites ,man is going aftre it!!
anjaneai
anjaneai · Jul 24, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
see we have already messed each section of god's wonderful creation .we have crossed the limits in assaulting life via varios studies and experiments on the name of science.so, its time to draw a line somewhere and it is now!

sorry its sounding too much of school essay para....hehehe!
sauravgoswami
sauravgoswami · Jul 24, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
so u belive in god!!god has only selected human to take care of planet earth,line shud be drawn in science too,but sceince is all about knowwing things,and its not a school eassay,its a fact,keep yourself updated
anjaneai
anjaneai · Jul 26, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
hey saurav ..you misunderstood ..sorry i was calling my statements bit essay types..donot mind.and i know things about cloning though not as much you think.sorry again .
no offense.
sauravgoswami
sauravgoswami · Jul 26, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
cease-fire,hope we all learn from mistakes,as m sure our clones will do them in future,who knows may better the humans too
anjaneai
anjaneai · Aug 14, 2008
Member of CrazyEngineers
hmmm....possiblities are infinite....

only a tiny population knows about this wonder .... so the minds oppossings are even less... and some giving their views here .. which is having no real impact!!..

SO?
vigneshamar
vigneshamar · Jul 23, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
It should never ever be legalised. I curse science for such an invention
Praveen Kumar Purushothaman
Member of CrazyEngineers
There are many legal issues too. How will a uniqueness exist when there's a clone?
Ramani Aswath
Ramani Aswath · Jul 27, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
praveenscience
There are many legal issues too. How will a uniqueness exist when there's a clone?
On a different note, who is cloned? The body? The brain? Memories and experience cannot be cloned. What about the soul? Is there a soul at all or is it just the database of stored thoughts in the brain?
Who am I? If my clone kills me is it murder or suicide?
The cloning is from cells that are at a particular stage of development and whatever damage they have suffered from birth till the time of cloning. Even if it looks like a new born babe my clone will be actually made of 72 year old cells. Any damage to DNA from my old habits or environment impact will be inherited by the clone. All these lead to ethical and moral issues, which at present do not seem to have a simple, unambiguous answers.

As a scientist, I would still go ahead with it, though not randomly. Perhaps clone a new born and bring them up in different backgrounds, cultures and geographic locations and see how they turn out after six years. I would even make two clones and study the cloned pair rather than the biologically born one, which can be left to develop normally in the original home.
durga ch
durga ch · Jul 27, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
As a scientist, I would still go ahead with it, though not randomly. Perhaps clone a new born and bring them up in different backgrounds, cultures and geographic locations and see how they turn out after six years. I would even make two clones and study the cloned pair rather than the biologically born one, which can be left to develop normally in the original home.
Sir,
I agree to you first paragraph , but the second one - i find it a a little difficult to digest?
Memories are built on individual experiences , and I think its not really possible to build a exact replica unless the memories are 'fed'. But treating clones as lab subjects - I somehow am not convinced with the idea. Yes, experimentation needs to be done to undetstand thier behaviour, but in such advanced enviornment we are discussing about, don;t you feel its possible to understand the behaviours without really subjecting them to such tests ?!!
Praveen Kumar Purushothaman
Member of CrazyEngineers
durga
Sir,
I agree to you first paragraph , but the second one - i find it a a little difficult to digest?
Memories are built on individual experiences , and I think its not really possible to build a exact replica unless the memories are 'fed'. But treating clones as lab subjects - I somehow am not convinced with the idea. Yes, experimentation needs to be done to undetstand thier behaviour, but in such advanced enviornment we are discussing about, don;t you feel its possible to understand the behaviours without really subjecting them to such tests ?!!
Durga, its just a clone right? Not legal and not living... Moreover Not Natural... Then why do you worry? Its just like making a copy of an original certificate and tearing it apart. 😀 No loss right?
durga ch
durga ch · Jul 28, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
hmm,
Can you refer test tube baby as not a normal baby and turn it into a lab subject?
The birth of test tube baby is not natural, but it still has same life and same behaviour as a normal baby through a biological birth.
I believe same applies to clones. they (not 'it') might not have a natural birth but they sure grown into humans right?

anyways, to get more insight, I refered to this link. It states there are three types of cloning 1.Therapeutic- research purpose where only the human cells are cloned ( which is OK for experimentation ), reporductive cloning where the human form is cloned and its ilegal and other is replacement cloning which involves cloning of damaged body parts.

Since we are talking about bringing them up in two different enviornements I beleive we are discussing about human cloning

Human cloning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
scottaleger
scottaleger · Jul 28, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
no this can be harmful for humanity
Ramani Aswath
Ramani Aswath · Jul 28, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
durga
Sir,
I agree to you first paragraph , but the second one - i find it a a little difficult to digest?
Memories are built on individual experiences , and I think its not really possible to build a exact replica unless the memories are 'fed'. But treating clones as lab subjects - I somehow am not convinced with the idea. Yes, experimentation needs to be done to undetstand thier behaviour, but in such advanced enviornment we are discussing about, don;t you feel its possible to understand the behaviours without really subjecting them to such tests ?!!
At times I feel that I am cruel when I am on a problem. To myself and co-workers. The study takes precedence.
However, in this case I was not suggesting that we do experiments on the clones. The problem is to establish whether the clone is just a copy in toto of the original or an individual soul with all that it implies. The clones will be brought up in different environments as normal humans only. Like adopted children. No special instructions to the foster parents. If necessary a grant to cover expenses (This is usually not done for other clinical trials) may even be given. The children will not be assessed till they are six.

The issue of legalizing cloning can be addressed based on whether the clones turn out to be individuals or copies. Irrespective of the outcome, the study subjects will be left free to lead their lives. As I stated in my post, the clone starts as old as the donor, which puts the clone at a disadvantage not of his/her choice. The ethics of this has to be sorted out before such study is undertaken.

On the other hand, I was not born by my choice. Given the option, I might have opted to continue as whatever or wherever I was before my mother conceived ne.
Praveen Kumar Purushothaman
Member of CrazyEngineers
Still 'they' are not natural and are against nature. What do you call a Robot with an AI and Emotions? He or it?
Ramani Aswath
Ramani Aswath · Jul 28, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
praveenscience
Still 'they' are not natural and are against nature. What do you call a Robot with an AI and Emotions? He or it?
IVF babies are not conceived normally. Yet they are people like us. Of course they are born like real ones except that the conception takes place outside the body.

A clone is different in that it is a replicate. The issue is more of the spirit than the artificial nature of creation of the body.

Isaac Asimov's story and the film Bicentennial Man address this issue of a robot that acquires AI and finally becomes a US citizen. I have read the book and seen the film.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bicentennial_Man
Prasad Ajinkya
Prasad Ajinkya · Jul 28, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
I see a lot of folks who are saying no to cloning, but I say why not? Just because we are touting the "ethical card"? I don't see how cloning is not ethical. If I can make more Kidakaka's I would happier. That way more problems could get solved and more thinkers such as me would arise (Humility is one of my lesser known traits ;-)) Secondly, I don't think a clone will have the same spirit as myself. He will definitely have the same cogitative skills and perhaps similar assimilation framework and learning curve, but his identity will be different from me ... it will be defined by his experiences. Same with his knowledge. The only problem I see (and this has always been the case with disruptive technologies) is that how would you prevent people from abusing this?
durga ch
durga ch · Jul 28, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
praveenscience
Still 'they' are not natural and are against nature. What do you call a Robot with an AI and Emotions? He or it?
Nature er???
have you heard of cesarean deliveries, where mothers don't deliver their babies in a natural way??? so you say , the baby is not natural as it was not born natural way?? or you still use neem twig to brush your teeth becasue its only natural , infact the office spaces are 'decorated' with artifical plants, where a presence of single live plant gives so much of solace.
Why do you think we have wildlife reserves??? because if animals are free , they are shot dead. They are 'reserved' in not so natural environment. So don't tell me clones cannot be treated as humans .. infact I believe I will hold them to more respect as they are the outcome of several scientific research work. They are not made of metal like robots, they are human flesh. We have advanced quite far from being the natural way Praveen. Either for good or for bad how ever one uses it. 😀

@ Ramani Sir,
I seem to be getting your point. You were to say that their behavior would be observed rather than programming them to behave in a specific fashion. The observation would be to see to what extent the clone can really clone their origin . Will it be affected by the circumstances in which they are brought up .

@ Kidakaka

" but his identity will be different from me ... it will be defined by his experiences. " exactly.
Ramani Aswath
Ramani Aswath · Jul 28, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
durga
@ Ramani Sir, Will it be affected by the circumstances in which they are brought up .

Not just that alone.

There are three possibilities.
1. The clones are identical with the donor in all respects including the soul (assuming for the moment that there is a soul)
2. The clones are just biological copies without any soul. Sort of bionic robots, which can eat, grow old and reproduce without a sense of ego or 'I'.
3. The clones are complete humans with their own individual egoes but exact biological copies of the donor.

The ethics and legality of the cloning process may be decided based on which of the above is valid.

In my opinion the third is the worst.

There will be collateral legal issues of property sharing, citizenship rights, parentage, family life for the clones and much more.

The easy way out is to ban it altogether and avoid solving these problems.
Sabrina Rajvansh
Sabrina Rajvansh · Sep 16, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
No because of two reasons
We are not god, it would be totally immoral.
Suppose you create a clone of someone who has died and let the clone live with the family members of the deceased, is it moral??
if you are creating a clone for lab experiment then it wont be fair with the clone as he/she has feelings to. In case of a test tube baby, the baby is allowed to grow in the womb of its mother for 9 months, the only difference is in the situations before that, the baby is not given some ones memories, it would have his/her own memories. A clone wont be given any identity, it would be left with nothing and someone who has feelings cannot be compared to a a certificate's photocopy, we aren't callous either.
scottaleger
scottaleger · Sep 17, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
No, human cloning should not legalized


This canharmfull for human
Rupam Das
Rupam Das · Sep 17, 2011
Member of CrazyEngineers
My understanding of Genetic Re-Engineering and Engineering tells me that
1) Genes are composed of proteins we commonly say ATDC( bypassing the tong twister Chemical Names!) A baby is born with similar Genes of his/her parents and not same genes of his/her parents
2) Neuron activities from childhood determines the changes in the protein structure. So babies brought up under different culture has different nature. Even two twins are genetically similar but not same.
3) Knowledge and Learning process puts the memory and processing in Neurons. The electrical and thus metabolic activities determines how the core protein bindings in the Genes itself changes. Important Learning and Genetic Evolution goes parallel.
4) Now talk about a clone. You can under any day with any science reproduce the exact brain cells. because the memory comes from senses and are stored across million of Cells. Even a super computer with 1 million processor can not transplant the memory from one brain to another. Right?

Sure Right! Have you ever heard about a science memory transplantation?

So back to clones, having same genes that of 'it's' father or donar. Because genes are same , he speaks, looks, feels the same as the donar. So a clone of Federer will Look same, can run same, will be as physically fit. Probably he can hit quite a few tennis ball as swiftly as Mr. Federar. But he can not beat even a Under 10 player. Why?

Because his brain is not exact replica of his fathers. Neurons grow and changes with time. Gene has nothing to do with our memory. two twins brought up in two different places will have different memory and brain.

5) So bottom line is you can create a Clone but you just can't create that brain. It will be blank when he born. Now if, clone can produce a foetus which can be put in a woman's womb and is delivered , then he will get entire opportunity of further advancing his Gene. But Scientifically will you call that a close?

End of Debate: Without Exact Neurological Transplantation, Genetic Cloning is as waste as it goes. "You dont want your child to be competing for IIT before he passes class I, even if his father is IITan".
Any further argument?
Praveen Kumar Purushothaman
Member of CrazyEngineers
@Kidakaka, the uniqueness goes away with this right? How can I say that you are Kidakaka, the original and the difference between the Kidakaka clones? Getting my point?

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