Combining a turbocharger and a supercharger together as a single unit, feasible?

Replies

• 

  jigarmech

  PrinceTan

  Hey CEians,
  I need some help here as I'm still a student exploring the mighty worlds of engineering, so please feel free to suggest/comment/criticize. I have had a plan in mind of fabricating something which combines both the turbocharger and the supercharger together as a single unit to allow better mounting and save some space as I am aware that people are already incorporating both chargers in the engine bay, but requiring 2 intercoolers and a messy setup of tubes running all over the engine.
  
  So the basic idea which struck me is maybe combining rotational motions from the crank and from the exhaust fumes into a single root type charger design. As I really have limited resources and knowledge, I'm not entirely sure if it will work, so a little help is appreciated. I plan to combine both rotational motions using miniature clutch-like structures. So, will this idea be feasible?
  
  Feedbacks are greatly appreciated.

  excess of air to fuel ratio will reduce the efficiency. So what is it behind introducing this concept? i mean are you trying to make engine run smoother or making it efficient...
• 

  PrinceTan

  Yea, in a way to improve efficiency of the engine because I've seen some of the examples which combines the power from both chargers and the engine looked messy as hell. So I thought that maybe this would turn out to be a good project. So you're suggesting that with an upgraded fuel system it actually can improve the efficiency, is that so?
• 

  jigarmech

  no buddy, what actually this turbo-super does in the system is it compresses the air and send it to engine resulting high air-fuel ratio which is basically adopted in racing bikes due to its high speed of the engine and hence less time it take to complete cycle. But in the conventional(non-racing) bikes the air-fuel ratio is perfect acc to the cylinder and will not alter in its efficiency by introducing these charger(that what i think).
  But i may say by introducing a combustible gas in the mixture in the charger itself and then supplying it to chamber might help in its efficiency and sounds innovative(idea struck my mind while i was replying. lol)
  
  Hope it helped you.
• 

  PrinceTan

  If I get you right you're suggesting something similar to nitrous oxide injection right? Anyways, did some further research and found out that indeed it will not work as the charger that I plan to integrate (root type supercharger) is not thermally efficient, as what you have indicated, plus it is not capable of producing higher boost even at higher engine RPM level. So, any other ways of achieving this concept of mine? If no, any other leads that you guys can suggest me research on as I initially thought of it as my final year project.
• 

  jigarmech

  PrinceTan

  If I get you right you're suggesting something similar to nitrous oxide injection right?

  no not nitrous oxide. I mean to say what if we mixture natural gas with air in charger itself and make their way to the engine cylinder where charge is already there...
  This will make the engine efficient, low running cost(but high initial cost) and sounds new concept(i haven't done this before and neither seen anywhere).
• 

  Siddhant Mukherjee

  Sorry friend, according to my point of view, using a supercharger and turbocharger together will not work well. There are several reasons for this, the first and the most significant one is the turbo lag. If you think that using both supercharger and turbocharger together will increase volumetric efficiency greatly ,then think twice because such systems will adversly affect the preset valve timing which is one of the most essential elements for smooth knock free running of your engine. So as a result, deciding cam profiles for aprropriate valve timing for such a system will be tedious.
  
  
  If you think that you can couple turbocharger to supercharger(like the charge first enters the turbocharger and then the compressed charge moves into supercharger), then you would lose a lot of brake power in running your supercharger due to high work requirements in compressing pressurized gas and if you reverse the system , then exhaust gases will not be able to run the turbocharger due to non availibility of adequate energy.
  
  If the system works, then i agree that it will deliver higher power but fuel consumption will also increase which, in my view will result in higher bsfc which is not desirable. Secondly in no way can such a system be used in S.I.engines. So, in my view such a system may prove to be disadvantageous.
• 

  Amit Krupal

  Hi
  
  I wanted to ask a few questions regarding the supercharger?
  
  1) Why does it create heat?
  
  2) how much heat does it create?
  
  3) Is it dangerous to run stock compression on it?
  
  4) If I were to install a thicker head gasket to lower compression, would size would it be and what compression ratio would be the best?
• 

  zaveri

  Amit Krupal

  Hi
  
  I wanted to ask a few questions regarding the supercharger?
  
  1) Why does it create heat?
  
  2) how much heat does it create?
  
  3) Is it dangerous to run stock compression on it?
  
  4) If I were to install a thicker head gasket to lower compression, would size would it be and what compression ratio would be the best?

  1) basically any device creates heat . if it does not create heat then it violates a law of thermodynamics and becomes a PMM.
  
  2) depends on its efficiency. the lesser the efficiency, the greater the heat created.
• 

  Amit Krupal

  zaveri

  1) basically any device creates heat . if it does not create heat then it violates a law of thermodynamics and becomes a PMM.
  
  2) depends on its efficiency. the lesser the efficiency, the greater the heat created.

  Well i mistakenly posted 1st question about heat, my main question is
  "Does any supercharger gives an compressed air with 100-150 degree Celsius? "
• 

  zaveri

  Amit Krupal

  Well i mistakenly posted 1st question about heat, my main question is
  "Does any supercharger gives an compressed air with 100-150 degree Celsius? "

  mostly it does
• 

  Gurjap

  This is actually a brilliant idea. A turbocharger is "online" only at certain exhaust pressures and temperatures, whereas a supercharger is "online" all the time. So whereas the turbo will be good for mining the exhaust for useful energy, the supercharger gives your engine an extra boost all the time. Both have their own advantages and disadvantages.
  
  What can be done is this. Take a roots blower, put a clutch between it and the turbocharger impeller shaft on one side and a clutch between it and the crank output. Then you can actuate the clutches as you prefer, running the impeller with crankpower during start up and with the turbocharger impeller when the engine is developing enough power. Actually you can use a governor to actuate the clutch for you as well.
• 

  saravanan4

  turbo or super charger is used to increase the efficiency , a combination of super charger and turbo charger will decrease the efficiency of the engine.
• 

  white_hat

  Gurjap

  This is actually a brilliant idea. A turbocharger is "online" only at certain exhaust pressures and temperatures, whereas a supercharger is "online" all the time. So whereas the turbo will be good for mining the exhaust for useful energy, the supercharger gives your engine an extra boost all the time. Both have their own advantages and disadvantages.
  
  What can be done is this. Take a roots blower, put a clutch between it and the turbocharger impeller shaft on one side and a clutch between it and the crank output. Then you can actuate the clutches as you prefer, running the impeller with crankpower during start up and with the turbocharger impeller when the engine is developing enough power. Actually you can use a governor to actuate the clutch for you as well.

  Yea I think this is one good idea.The super charger must be cut off , when engine reaches a higher rpm.
  This can avoid the turbo lag.As the exhaust gases have enough pressure at higher rpm , we will get the required boost.
• 

  Amit Krupal

  white_hat

  Yea I think this is one good idea.The super charger must be cut off , when engine reaches a higher rpm.
  This can avoid the turbo lag.As the exhaust gases have enough pressure at higher rpm , we will get the required boost.

  Well I think Twin-charger (Super-charger & Turbo Charger) concept is already in production
• 

  gohm

  There's a Ford GT that has a supercharger & twin turbos. Audi R32 as well. I'm sure you can find other cars that have been created with this special setup.