Time-out call to all posters

@voltaire-4MxWke • Oct 24, 2024

Oct 24, 2024

1.0K

Ladies/Fellas

You've got to cut us some slack here. We want to help but you are making it very difficult. Some of the questions that are asked are simply impossible to answer. To be able to help you it is essential that you supply as MUCH information as possible. If you ask for example 'I need help with water'; how the heck are we supposed to know what you mean? Or 'Help me. I want to make hydrogen'.

I stopped counting how many times Mr. K has repeated this message to posters...nearly every time! You CAN NOT ask the board to help you with your research. You CAN ask the board to help you with a specific problem that you have with regards to the interpretation of an article or with a procedure that you need to follow. I have seen posts where the poster asks for the complete design as well as the relevant literature. Even if I had it I would not give it to you! That would make you more lazy than you already are and worthless to the poor soul who hires you at the end of your course.

You are NOT intelligent if you give a half-baked explanation of what you are trying to do. Exactly the opposite: you are dumb. You are NOT clever if you ask for a complete project: you are lazy. You are NOT saving time by short-cutting through design: you are dangerous. You are NOT smart by sounding off about your brilliant idea: you are immature. You do NOT impress me by being vague: you irritate me.

You are NOT going to save time by coming to this forum and asking me these questions because I am, from now on, going to make sure that you get the maximum benefit from this forum by making sure that: you come prepared, that you have studied the relevant subject matter, that you have formulated your question properly, that you have considered the alternatives, that you have completed your concept design and that you have formulated a philosophy.

The objective of University study is NOT that you may get a fancy job in a fancy office and driving a fancy car. The objective is also not that you may learn how to do the math; although that is important. The objective is that you may become equipped so that you can train your mind in the philosophy of knowledge and science. If you fail to achieve this then you may have missed the objective and you are better off doing something else. If you are not serious about what you are doing then you are wasting my time and other peoples' time. Not to mention the large amount of money and resources that goes into running this web site.

So; you are privileged. Act like you appreciate it.

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Kaustubh Katdare

@thebigk • Jul 28, 2010

Ah well... we've lost lot of (LOT OF!) experienced, talented engineers because of this. Several members have written to me in the past that they were quitting the forums because lot of members didn't know how to ask questions and had no basic manners of thanking or acknowledging the help. 90% of the time was lost in understanding what's being asked. CE's mods spend lot of time fixing the thread titles to make them more sensible. Unfortunately, I'm yet to find a solution for this problem. CE was meant to be the place where engineers brainstorm over complex problems, new ideas, latest happenings et al; but we are way far away from it.

...what hurts more is that most of such behavior is from Indian engineers/engineering students. I even wrote a post about it on my personal blog: #-Link-Snipped-#

This thread is being moved to Chit-Chat for better visibility among guests and new members.
Saandeep Sreerambatla

@saandeep-sreerambatla-hWHU1M • Jul 28, 2010

Yeah, this has been discussed many times!
People learn from their mistakes , but few others who are just too busy to work will never learn.
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Jul 28, 2010

Mr. K
I can assure you that this phenomenon is worldwide and not confined to the sub-continent. Africa, USA, Europe - all over. And I do not think that it is only the students to blame; the system is creating this problem as well.

India has such a rich scientific history and some of the greatest scientific minds came from India: Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose (physics), Prafulla Chandra Ray (chemistry), Srinivasa Ramanujan (mathematics), Sir Chandrasekhara Venkata Raman (mathematics and physics; he graduated at 15 and completed his masters degree before he was 18 - cum laud with honors. Knighted in 1929, Nobel prize for physics in 1930, Bharat Ratna in 1954) and my personal favorite, Subramaniam Chandrasekhar (astrophysicist. At the age of 18 he calculated what is still known today as the Chandrasekhar limit; the mass limit above which a star can not become a white dwarf).

These people won their scholarships only by hard work and dedication and brute intellectual force. Your students certainly have a lot to strive to. Let us hope that they do.
Kartik Vyas

@kartik-vyas-FTNaHZ • Jul 29, 2010

Well,

NO offense meant, but If you look at CE from the point of view of a student who thinks that CE is a service and (s)he is just a customer then such student has every right to ask for whatever (s)he wants. Now whether or not CE is willing or able to deliver it is an entirely different matter.

I am strictly against copying stuff. But yes I do feel that if someone really had the time or inclination to do homework, at least 25% of the visitors to CE would not have visited CE at all. It is because someone is giving me a cooked meal to eat that I am able to post here, else I would have been cooking myself. Moral of the story - one should have some ready made things on CE. Had everyone been on the same page of knowledge or anything , all the other pages would not have been required 😛.

- KGV
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Jul 29, 2010

If you look at CE from the point of view of a student who thinks that CE is a service and (s)he is just a customer
CE is a free and there are no paying customers. It is this culture of entitlement that causes students to assume that they are 'customers' with a 'right' while they are actually little more than parasites.
However, if the students are willing to pay for answers then they must say so.

if someone really had the time or inclination to do homework, at least 25% of the visitors to CE would not have visited CE at all
I'll let you in on a secret: CE does not need those leeches who are here only because they are too lazy to do their homework. They only serve to drag the standards down as they generally ask stupid questions too

It is because someone is giving me a cooked meal to eat that I am able to post here
No, it's not and you are on the wrong forum

, else I would have been cooking myself
Now there is a novel idea: hard work!

Had everyone been on the same page of knowledge or anything , all the other pages would not have been required
Sounds like a quote from Idiot's Guide
durga ch

@durga-TpX3gO • Jul 29, 2010

Voltaire, KGV
I could not agree more with both your arguments, KGV seems to be mentioning about the current situation. It's not only Under grads who come looking for projects/ but we did have few posting from people who are PHDs and Mtechs. Now does that ring the bell? Infact every one of us is to be faulted I feel. Any new member joining , joins on what he sees. You are a guest - you see what's going on in the forum and then you join if you want. Since they find CE offering projects discussions and many asking questions regarding projects - they join in assuming ' we can ask for projects'. If the vision of ' world for engineers' be envisaged- a model suitable for that vision needs to be created and I feel, we have somewhere failed there. Its not in capabilities of a single individual to do that.
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Jul 30, 2010

too busy to work
I doubt those lazy bums are working...maybe on their parents' nerves; yes.
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Jul 30, 2010

I could not agree more with both your arguments
Huh? Since our views are diametrically opposed you should have said e.g.

I could not agree with both your arguments
Decide which is right; adopt a standpoint and have the courage to stand by it!

A person who doubts himself is like a man who would enlist in the ranks of his enemies and bear arms agains himself. He makes his failure certain by himself being the first person to be convinced of it.
----Ambrose Bierce
Kaustubh Katdare

@thebigk • Jul 30, 2010

Cool down, everyone!

Is this discussion turning into a fight? We all know that there will always be people who'd want free lunches. Going with CE's philosophy, it was never meant to be a place to seek free lunches. It is very-very hard to change people's mindsets. There are tons of students who took up engineering not because they wanted to be engineers to create/build something; but because they wanted a short-cut to the job world. The job world offers them what they are capable of and that's the end of their story.

Every day, I end up answering (or ignoring) at least 5-6 mails that ask for 'Complete Project Report with Presentation and Reference Material'. I remember the days I used to get frustrated and I found it very difficult to accept the fact that engineers were asking for ready made stuff. But over a period of 4 years; I realized that it's foolish to waste time on them. I started focusing on the talented ones (and let me tell everyone - there are LOTS of talented engineers on CE). Our hope, our future lies on these few who help others, contribute ideas and in a tiny way, help building a better world.

Now what do we do with engineers who ask for ready made help, do not know how to ask questions, don't do their homework, have no motivation to learn? We learn to tolerate them or ignore them. They'll continue to exist everywhere for infinite time ahead.
Sahithi Pallavi

@sahithi-oJZaYj • Jul 30, 2010

😔 I hope atleast some of them will realize now. That's for sure!!
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Jul 30, 2010

Sorry Mr. K
Did not mean to get upset...just ^$*# me off to see how youngsters expect/demand to be spoon fed.
I am here on my own time and to be told that I am just a service provider to a customer ticks me off. I am a professional and I have been doing it for longer than these kids have been breathing. I am doing it on my own time, without material gratification in the interest of myself as well as these kids. It does, however, give me enormous gratification when a youngster becomes enlightened in some way or another. If I can spot a talent on these pages then it is worth it for me and who knows; I, or someone else, might just approach talented young men and woman with an offer of employment.

So far I have been disappointed but I am sure that they will get the point: they are being watched on these boards and the dumber they choose to be the further they move down on prospective employers' lists. Engineering is about ethics as well as knowledge. Some of these youngsters have shown that they lack in both departments.
durga ch

@durga-TpX3gO • Jul 30, 2010

@ Voltaire - you were making the point of people asking for free stuff is annoying ? and KGV was making a point " why wont they ask if they are being offered?". I don't think I need courage to inter relate both.
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Jul 30, 2010

I'm not sure that I agree with you because I see a different context. Look at his premise:

CE is a service and (s)he is just a customer then such student has every right to ask for whatever (s)he wants
When we inspect your argument i.e.

why wont they ask if they are being offered
then we have to see if his premise supports your argument for your support of his argument to be valid. Would you agree?

So, let us inspect it: CE is a web site forum. That means it is a public forum and also, by definition, a site for discussion. The notion that it is a place for 'clients' to ask 'service providers' for free stuff is misplaced and does not conform to the definition of and Internet forum.

Since we have now proven that the premise is unfounded the argument does not stand. This is a basic principle of something else that you fellas should be doing here: debate!

Consider this response I garnered on these pages

you are here to help others not to question them
Since this is the expectation then why does the same not apply to the person who asked me that question? check it out #-Link-Snipped-#
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Jul 30, 2010

Good start to a debate though. Keep going 😉

I see you are in Sydney. I'll be traveling there next month...one of my favorite places

Peace
Kaustubh Katdare

@thebigk • Jul 30, 2010

CE is NOT a service 😀 . Yes, people can ask anything they want (this is a public forum). The only thing pissing everyone off is that most of the engineers are asking for free stuff and that too in a very casual way.
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Jul 30, 2010

Thanks Boss
CE is free! Anyone can register (for free) and ask questions, give answers and debate issues (also for free) while Mr. K, who is a respected and qualified engineer and who could charge $200 per hour in industry, spends HIS time and HIS money to HELP YOU fells/girls achieve and aspire to those who went before you; and there are many great scientists/engineers to aspire to!
Don't take this privilege for granted and don't abuse it. The last thing you want is to have to pay for it
😉
Saandeep Sreerambatla

@saandeep-sreerambatla-hWHU1M • Jul 30, 2010

I echo Durga here , since many people search for projects and land up on CE!
They visit all the pages and asking for free projects , they do the same thing!
So that is not going to change what ever you talk or what ever you decide! But how to eliminate it is the basic question on CE?
Can we remove the free lunch posts from CE?
It may decrease the no of posts since those posts are the mail reason where people ask for free lunches!
Kaustubh Katdare

@thebigk • Jul 31, 2010

We do not want to eliminate them, because we can't. There are lot of students who've taken something positive from CE and they appreciate it for changing their views about engineering. My only suggestion is that we should ignore them and whenever possible; help them.

There have been tons of students who've personally told me that they think CE is too technical. Let them come asking for free lunch and then learn what the engineering world expects from them.
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Jul 31, 2010

learn what the engineering world expects from them
Hehehe
Did you know: It was the scientists who landed Apollo 11 on the moon. It was the engineers who crashed Apollo 13
Go figure...
Kaustubh Katdare

@thebigk • Jul 31, 2010

Voltaire
Hehehe
Did you know: It was the scientists who landed Apollo 11 on the moon. It was the engineers who crashed Apollo 13
Go figure...
Yep. Engineers invented computers to solve the problems that didn't exist before 😛 [Oops, am I totally out of context 😉 ]
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Jul 31, 2010

Out of context? Not at all
When all else fails...BLAME THE PROJECT MANAGER
gaurav.bhorkar

@gauravbhorkar-Pf9kZD • Jul 31, 2010

It is high time members should understand how to format their post properly.
vik001ind

@vik001ind-rOaCSy • Jul 31, 2010

I have made this point earlier (but in a much softer tone than voltaire).
First of all everyone has the right to put up his/her point & others should have the patience to understand others, this is the culture, I have been seeing here. Flaming & direct attack is rare. Its good that you are putting up a health point, but showing aggression turns everything into chaos. Your particular style of quoting each line of another user & refuting it shows much aggression. Rather we should come up with solutions. CE is a cool community & we shouldn't lose that basic trait.

And now coming to the topic.
CE is quite flexible in matter of content due to the quality of members it generally attract. Users tend to ask basic & same questions again & again. That reduces the ratio of quality/quantity of posts. We can't solve this problem instantly as its done by a huge no. of users & I'm afraid to say that the no. quality users is very low wrt to total users. Its not feasible to manipulate the posts or change the psyche of such a large user base. What we can do here is to separate them from health posts, just as we have different sub forum, we can have a basic division of posts as immature posts & mature posts. It will result into 2 groups of users mature/immature users. In this way we can retain quality of the forum & people who mind those immature posts shouldn't visit that section of posts.
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Aug 1, 2010

this is the culture
I respect that

have the patience to understand others
Got the patience; haven't got the time. It would be easier if people were clear about their intentions - as agreed by most on this forum

Your particular style of quoting each line of another user & refuting it shows much aggression
Accepted norm. Get used to it

Users tend to ask basic & same questions again & again
That is why thousands of dollars are spent to STORE the text and why there is a TUTORIAL encouraging people to SEARCH the forums BEFORE REPEATING questions. To do so is a courtesy to others who must now spend their (also valuable) time to separate the nonsense from the educational/meaningful.

ts not feasible to manipulate the posts or change the psyche of such a large user base
Unqualified but accepted at face value. I have never cared less...as long as those questions are not directed at the board with the expectation of receiving a sentient answer

quality users is very low
In my view it is better to educate those than to ignore them. There is another accepted view to ignore them (not being debated here). To appreciate the problem you have to ask yourself what you want to contribute. To impart knowledge is to give a person a fish so that he may have food for a day; to impart philosophy is to teach a person to fish so that he may have food for a long time.

. It will result into 2 groups of users mature/immature users
And how many dollars/rupees are you going to invest so that an administrator can be appointed to achieve that?

That reduces the ratio of quality/quantity of posts
And...?

My friend; there are certain realities that you need to become familiar with and comfortable with. One is that you are here on this forum without having to spend a rupee! I am spending many hours here without getting a rupee. Does this mean it is free? Who pays for the hosting? Who maintains the forum? Who pays for the (great) software that we use here? Who moderates these forums? Who pays for all of this? Nothing in life is free; everything costs money.
The second is that academic discussion is a fantastic pastime. It educates, feeds the mind and builds intellect. The purpose, however, is that you may become enlightened and that you may train your mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily accepting it out of hand; or become frightened by it just because it rocks your world.

I want you to answer to my post that we may engage in debate. Just do me one favor: think about it first. I do not entertain fundamentalist argument!
vik001ind

@vik001ind-rOaCSy • Aug 1, 2010

Voltaire
I respect that
Got the patience; haven't got the time. It would be easier if people were clear about their intentions - as agreed by most on this forum
It doesn't matter, time or patience. If you don't have time to understand others, don't feel that others will take you seriously.

Voltaire
I respect that
Accepted norm. Get used to it
Whatever... such a norm is rare here & sounds rude.

Voltaire
I respect that that is why thousands of dollars are spent to STORE the text and why there is a TUTORIAL encouraging people to SEARCH the forums BEFORE REPEATING questions. To do so is a courtesy to others who must now spend their (also valuable) time to separate the nonsense from the educational/meaningful.
A great part of the earning of the website which supports the storage of text comes from these unknown users & guests who visits the site daily & write repeated questions, thats why they are important. They are not less important than your thousands of dollar spent in storing the text.

Voltaire
In my view it is better to educate those than to ignore them. There is another accepted view to ignore them (not being debated here). To appreciate the problem you have to ask yourself what you want to contribute. To impart knowledge is to give a person a fish so that he may have food for a day; to impart philosophy is to teach a person to fish so that he may have food for a long time.
Get realistic. If you wanna educate others, do feasiblity study first or come up with some awesome idea. Philosophy can't result in anything, if you can't implement. Users you post such redundant data are not regular users or regular visitors, they just want their thing to be done. Some of them can't even afford regular internet connectivity. You need to understand this in Indian context as they are in majority here.

Voltaire
And how many dollars/rupees are you going to invest so that an administrator can be appointed to achieve that?
And...?
It will not cost anything, better you spend more time reading & understanding what I have posted above.

Voltaire
My friend; there are certain realities that you need to become familiar with and comfortable with. One is that you are here on this forum without having to spend a rupee! I am spending many hours here without getting a rupee. Does this mean it is free? Who pays for the hosting? Who maintains the forum? Who pays for the (great) software that we use here? Who moderates these forums? Who pays for all of this? Nothing in life is free; everything costs money.
The second is that academic discussion is a fantastic pastime. It educates, feeds the mind and builds intellect. The purpose, however, is that you may become enlightened and that you may train your mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily accepting it out of hand; or become frightened by it just because it rocks your world.
Get yourself enlightened first.
Those forces that are costing money are indeed helping to earn many folds of it. At present there are 309 users(305 guests & 5 users) are on CE. More visitors is the primary concern & the secondary concern is the quality of post. If you can't understand this, I can't help you.

Voltaire
I want you to answer to my post that we may engage in debate.
As you are focussing in refuting others & don't have time to understand other, so your dedate looks more like a tussle than a health discussion. I don't have time for such things as I have spent much of my time writing this. Those who want to understand can understand enough from this post. I have said enough & I don't have any intention in getting involved in a dog fight. So expect no more replies in this post.

Voltaire
Just do me one favor: think about it first. I do not entertain fundamentalist argument!
Anyone can tell whose argument sounds like fundamentalist. Infact, its totally wrong to use the word fundamentalist here. I would rather call your argument orthodox, partisan & dogmatic. Its seems like you are just typing for the sake of typing & spitting your philosophy to confuse & refute others.
Kaustubh Katdare

@thebigk • Aug 1, 2010

This thread is close to being closed.
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Aug 1, 2010

Thank you

Eloquent and coherent 😉

Let us find the premise for you argument:

Some of them can't even afford regular internet connectivity.
So, a poor person does not deserve an answer? In that case you and I have fundamentally different values!

You need to understand this in Indian context as they are in majority here.
As previously stated; I respect that. It still does not give us a reason to ignore poor people because they are poor!
Since your premise has been debased your argument does not stand.
vik001ind

@vik001ind-rOaCSy • Aug 1, 2010

You are doing the same thing which I have pointing earlier, refuting without understanding.
The separation between mature & immature will be for people like you who don't like answering them, those who want to help them can still help. Infact they can still get the answers if they search properly. Try to understand the flexibility of my arguments by giving it more time rather than trying to refute it.
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Aug 1, 2010

Vic
I like your argument. Even if I do not agree with it, it is encouraging to see intellect and debate here.
Peace young man and keep everyone honest here 😀
vik001ind

@vik001ind-rOaCSy • Aug 1, 2010

nice of you! 😉
I don't think, I have gone far enough! never mind..
PEACE prevails!
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Aug 1, 2010

Play chess with me on chesscube
vik001ind

@vik001ind-rOaCSy • Aug 1, 2010

Thanks, I will someday!
loads of work are pending!
Manish Goyal

@manish-r2Hoep • Aug 1, 2010

Thank GOD
everything is fine now otherwise i was thinking of 3rd world war here 😀
Ashraf HZ

@Ash • Aug 2, 2010

CE is pretty much a community effort, so a mutual understanding is needed by anyone expecting solutions for their problems. Obviously this is more apparent in seasoned members rather than newbies, so we'll need to remind these new users of the basics of asking questions or queries. Can't save all of them, but at least we gotta try.

*goes back into hibernation*
Voltaire

@voltaire-4MxWke • Aug 2, 2010

Hahaha. No prob
Peace mate
tashirosgt

@tashirosgt-7BsIre • Aug 10, 2010

Maybe you need a some sort of tier system in the forum. Have some sections for experts only? Let the moderators promote users to those sections or require some credentials from users. For example, there are forums on web about heating and air conditions systems that have sections for professionals only. To post in those sections, you must provide the forum administrator with proof that you are a professional repairman.
Kaustubh Katdare

@thebigk • Aug 10, 2010

Good idea. Hmm... do we really need it?
Aashish Joshi

@aashish-VrevFC • Aug 11, 2010

tashirosgt
Maybe you need a some sort of tier system in the forum. Have some sections for experts only? Let the moderators promote users to those sections or require some credentials from users. For example, there are forums on web about heating and air conditions systems that have sections for professionals only. To post in those sections, you must provide the forum administrator with proof that you are a professional repairman.
I like this concept, will reduce the mods/admin's workload, for one. And maybe help in keeping the "leechers", as mentioned earlier, restricted to a particular section.
Kaustubh Katdare

@thebigk • Aug 11, 2010

I don't think it will reduce the workload. Additional section => Overload. For example, I had to remove comments on our Small Talk with Seth Godin that asked for Project Ideas. Beat that? 😛
tashirosgt

@tashirosgt-7BsIre • Aug 11, 2010

Perhaps experts-only is too strong a requirement for a separate section. You might restrict new member's posts to the chit-chat forum and some sort of beginners technical forum until they at least show they can compose some coherent posts. I agree it's not going to be less work. I suppose the question is whether the improvement in the quality of the forum would be worth the additional work.

Another idea would be have a section with a euphemistic name like "Short Requests For Help". When you get a post like "Please help for third year project in information science", you could move it move it into that section. It would turn into a junk pile, but it would unclutter the other sections.
gohm

@gohm-F3UUpP • Aug 12, 2010

Yeah, I get a share of private requests for ready-made projects (although I doubt nearly as much as Biggie) & I usually ignore them (and the projects forum section) as I figure commenting how they are only selling themselves short would fall on deaf ears. (I did try initially to incourage this idea among the requestors) The trend does seem to be increasing over the past few years and my guess has been from social pressure to obtain a degree as a sign of success or self worth. Worldwide the educational system is chock full of folks with no passion or desire in their field of study and the degree (piece of paper) is viewed as the end result and not the means to an end result (rewarding career, knowledge) that it SHOULD be. Educational systems are becoming mass production factories. One issue facing Spain and many other nations is dire shortage of skilled professions. Don't get me wrong, I am not against advanced education at all. Anywho... more on topic, is it possible maybe to have a minimum character count for all posts on projects? That way more than a two sentence post would have to be submitted, greatly blocking out the "can I have a project" post.
tashirosgt

@tashirosgt-7BsIre • Aug 12, 2010

Many project requesters make unspecific requests that don't show any effort to do their own preliminary research - but many project givers simply give project titles instead of any substantive advice. The ask-vs-tell dialogs about projects are a stand-off as far as who is giving the least information!