CE Project: CE Bot

So this is our first step:

Project Objectives (Listed in Priority + Timewise):

1. Discuss the specifications of the bot, physical size and its use. What is the bot for? What functions will it perform? The Why and What. TIME: 1 week.

Must finish in 1 week. Anyone interested can add for now.

Great work, man. However, maybe we should extend the deadline a little 😉 1 week is a little to soon given the relatively low activity here. How about 2?

I've got number of different ideas. But since we MIGHT have some interest with the Google Lunar X challenge, here's my initial draft.

1.
The bot will be a rover-like vehicle, able to traverse over rough surfaces to get from point A to B. It'll be able to detect objects with the use of image-processing and other proximity sensors. Cameras will be used to record data and wirelessly transmit data to a computer.

On the computer, the data can be processed to create some kinda terrain map. 3D perhaps?

The bot itself can be autonomous or remote control. If autonomous, the bot detects some beacon at point B and goes to it while avoiding obstacles (obstructions, holes, traps?) and taking data.

The size is relatively small, maybe the footprint would not be larger than a standard magazine.

So, with that, we have all sorts of engineering disciplines involved. I'll update it once I get more ideas.

That is an excellent idea, specially about it transferring the video data to an off board computer for it to be processed into a 3D terrain map.

I was thinking, we must not concentrate on the moon rover. This other team which will be joining soon will be bringing their own design and they just want us to help. Anyway, moon rover is no easy task, we can talk as much as we like but the reality is very different. I am pissed off too after realizing this...like take off, landing and survival in Xtreme temp -173`C to +100`C! Making a rover is a cake walk compared to the other tasks.

Anyway, we can make a small rover which can move into small places and need not have a plain ground, it can also "traverse" into a hole vertically. Why this? Firefighters and rescue teams can use it many cases. In India itself we have many incidents of ppl falling into holes, or building collapse, or floods etc.


I agree with the size too. Has to be small.

Proposed Ideas:

1. Time for each task is 2 weeks now.
2. Possible components under Sensors: Camera, Wireless transmitter (Ethernet, not bluetooth- need range), Temporary storage.

3. What do you think about most of the process being taken care of an offboard computer? Should it be manual or auto or semi-auto controll?

Yup you are right. Moon rover is not an easy job but not impossible.

It would be a hard time for me to decide what to do with this robot, but if others have a definite plan I can help with tasks 2 and 3.

Compnents:
1. Camera: Necessary for self navigation of the robot
2. Serial/Parallel or USB port - for connecting to the robot
3. Wireless: Bluetooth has a max range of 100m (Class I) and uses less power (the biggest advantage). Other possible option is WI-Fi.
4. Processor: A good microcontroller will take car of all the jobs. I could be a very good help while programming this thing.
5. Temporary Storage: It oculd be anything, from a small memory card (SD/MMC) to a complete hard disk. Nowadays storage is pretty cheap, so we dont have to worry much about the cost factor. When connected vai the ports or wireless, we should be able to acces the temporary data stored here like log files, raw data that is being captured thorught its mic or camera, etc..
6. Arms: Ateast two arms so that it can pick up things or move objects from its way.
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and let the list grow..


In btw, why the heck there is very little activity in CE?

Great contribution bro!

Yeah, we are not really working on an actual Lunar Bot that will be sent to the moon, but a normal rover that does similar functions (ie navigate over a rough surface, collect data, transmit data etc). xheavenlyx, thats a good point about using it for rescue purposes. If we plan to go vertical, we might look at the use of legs instead of wheels (like a spider). Reminds me of the topic we discussed here:
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Low power consumption
We'll try keeping most of the processing offline, so that the bot does not consume much power. That would also include using a wireless transmitter with a good range to power ratio. Low power = small battery supply = reduced weight and size. But remember guys, the transmission channel may not always be perfect! You must consider the fact there is interference, and that the bot is not stationary.

If we plan to use microcontroller, we must design the circuitry as efficient as possible. Now we need a balance between cost/efficiency like proper voltage regulators, etc.

For storage, we can use the a flash storage like bayazid suggested. It'll probably act to store robot instructions as well as a buffer for data (since we are transmitting it off later). However, if you want to change the bot's role to collect all data first, then we may need a bigger storage solution.

We need a rough sketch of the bot. Very hard to visualize with just words. Later, mechanical/mechatronic CEans can draft them on CAD software 😀

In btw, why the heck there is very little activity in CE?

We need a critical mass of active CEans, I suppose. However, Big K is putting a lot of effort to get more members and encourage participation.. look out for that!

Good Ideas! 😀 So now we have these components as @bayazid and @Ash have pointed:

Compnents:
1. Camera: We can see later what kind of a camera, and how it will be connected.

2. Serial/Parallel or USB port: We can keep all if he make one concideration, see below.

3. Wireless: Bluetooth or Wi-Fi. But since we need more range we can have Class 1 BT or a Wi-Fi, that will depend on the processor.

4. Processor: IMPORTANT CHANGE. See below.

5. Temporary Storage: A hard drive can be used, as a temp storage and as a buffer depending on the time and need of the data! It can also be used as a log when something goes wrong in a rescue operation.

6. Arms: Very good suggestion! We can have one or two. Lets see how the design proceeds.

4. Processor: Now this is an important factor. I was thinking, why not use an old laptop, which has all the important things! Parallel port x1, Serial x1, USB x2, A hard drive, an expansion slot for wireless or bluetooth (swappable) and a custom linux backed firmware for operations. All programming can be done in C or Python. Can have more AI then what a normal microcontroller can support. We can remove the screen for power saving or keep it for status of machine, testing etc etc. I have an old acer with me and never found a use for it 😀

7. Motion mechanism: How about something of the likes of this, but not the same:

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Ash, programming the legs can take up a lot of processing power! Since even in a vertical drop, a legged robot cannot be more productive then a wheeled, because anyway we will be hoisting it down with a rope! If we design a legged, then we have to concentrate on the mechanism and programming. We can have another project in the future with a snake like moving ability or legged, even I want to do something different than wheels, but for this one we can have a tank type drive. What do you think?

And as for the outer design and chassis, we will do that after we finalize the components 😀

Hi CEans! Call me ahmed.

Coming straight to the point.
Laptop?? Are you sure? Do you know how much your acer laptop weighs?
Even if we keep the issue of weight aside, there are some other problems with using a laptop.
1. The major problem is with ports: Your Laptop has only one parallel port. Parallel ports are a great help in designing things. For instance, take the case of wheels. For wheels we will be using stepper motors, stepper motors require 4 pulses. So two stepper motors for the two sides, that amounts upto 8 pulses or 8 pins from the parallel port. Now, the parallel port on the laptop has only 8 i/p/o/p pins! How will we configure other things like the arm and other components that will be attached to it? Camera can go to the USB. I think we need atleast 32 bits to program this beast.
2. Weight
3. Size: Its quite bulky
4. Customization: another biggest disadvantage, you cant customize it to fit exactly your needs. All ou can play with is programming, and that take half the fun out.
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Having said all this, I am not completely disagreeing with the suggestion of xheavenlyx using a laptop. There are many advantages to it as well.
1. You have everything assembled! All you have to take care of it is programming.
2. Programming is much easier. With a microcontroller you wil have to go for ASM though there are some compilers available fro microcontrolles hat convert your C program to ASM.
3. Communication part becomes easier with the LAN/bluetooth/Wi-Fi of the laptop. With the microcontroller we will have to go for a serial port (I call this an advantage, but I am in favour of a serial port, it looks professional 😎)
4. Crazy: We are turning a laptop into a robot, and this falls into the category of crazyness!
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I'm down with fever, so I can't think of any new ideas to contribute 😔 laptop sounds good, but remember we are doing most of the data processing offboard.

In terms of weight, we can just use the motherboard.. no need for the laptop chasis. You'll just have one big ass PIC board then. What else.. um, as ahmed said about the parallel port, I guess we need to multiplex it 😀 We can also use other I/Os; the mic input/sound output can be used as a ultrasonic detector, with modifications of course. We can safely rid the screen entirely, as long as you have a VGA output!

I like the tank track idea. Looks cooler 😛 We can still use a microcontroller, I guess. Connect it to a serial or USB, hehe.

However, im still an advocate of using low power. What processor does the Acer laptop have, xhx?

Wow! Both of you have raised amazing points!!

Ahmed, thats a good point. Here are a few things I would like to clear:

1. Yes, ports can be a problem (Refresh: 1 PP, 1 Serial rs232, 2 USB), but I wanted to include something very vital in the project. Similar to the lines of what ash pointed out. I will talk about it in the end.

2. You are right about the weight, but we can try our best to strip it down. It uses a P1 processor. 128 MB RAM. Still have to see power consumption. As ash said, we can keep the VGA-outpt and remove the screen. I also think, for some field jobs we need good traction, if its okok light then it can slip off surfaces and be a bit ... flimsy. Dont know, lets see. From robot competetions I have seen on TV. A 200 lb (about 90+kg) can run good on affordable batteries.

3. Above 😀

4. Customization: Another important factor. But what does the laptop replace? Only the mC. Still we have the motors, sensors and the power management to handle. Well, we have the most flexibility with a powerful processor with "INFINITE" inputs 😁 This is the fun part, the processor and the inputs! See next post on Processor and Input/Output.

CE Project: CE Bot: Processor

Firstly here is the links for the ACER Extensa 500 laptop.

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• The Processor is Intel Pentium® processor with MMX technology.

• 166, 200, 233, 266 MHz

• MMX technology provides 57 new instruction sets to improve processor performance in traditional digital signal processor [DSP] applications, including the graphics, audio and voice processing capabilities now emerging as value-added features in high-performance embedded products. MMX technology can potentially eliminate the requirement for DSP chips in embedded applications such as video kiosks, telecommunications devices and POS terminals.

Why I support using this processor instead of a PIC? Well, we have huge potential to expand the on-board functionality! I mean, we are doing so many tasks, in a controlled manner, and on the way helping in the manual control even if its not fully automated! Like, motor drives, 1 (or 2) arm(s), camera, IR, sonar (ultrasound), temperature, and optimizing the power usage.

Ok, now the problems of I/O.

Two solutions exist, in my head, you can add in too! 😀

1. Using multiplexers. This can get a bit complicated (havent thought on this one) but is possible to get 32 or 64 bits from 8 bit I/O. One disadvantage is that, the mux are non-intelligent devices. How? :

2. Using simple PIC mCs connected to the PP and Serial: Think of a multinational company. We have the board members (main processor), the managing directors of each division (PIC's connected to the Proc.), the workers (modules, sensors connected to PIC's). This way we can have more ADC's (Analog to Digital Converters), more Inputs and more outputs. PIC's have interupts to stop a processes in emergencies. They can either do their own calculations and take an action or simply report to the processor.

Software wise we can have C functions specifically written to program the PIC's whenever needed through the Serial port!

Now the tough part is sitting down and designing the protocol and methods. I am willing to help on that.

What do you guys think? Of this looooong and tiring post 😀

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*EDIT*
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Oh, yea, and another method is using a network of PIC's connected to each other and forming an intelligent network. Each one can take own modules to control, using their own head, or talking to each other to know the status and take actions.

Multiplexers is not an option

Connecting teo PICs, one to PP and one to SP will solve the problem but make the complete thing quite bulky. One Pic can control the basic functions of the robot like wheels, arms, cameras, etc... and the other can be used to mointor the various sensors and for any additional functions apart from the basic ones.

A network of PICs is a very good idea, it will be a bit complicated. Lets not concentrate on this for the time being and keep this feature for version 2.0.

I was thinking treads for locomotion as well. Oversized so it can still run if it gets flipped over.

What about a gas detector? Can detect the threat of carbon monoxide, natural gas leaks, etc. that could be a risk to people entering area afterwards (scientists, rescue workers). The vehicle itself would need to be spark proof.

temp. probe or camera using IR.

A bulldozer type front blade to push objects out of the way to the side? That way you only need one grab arm. Arms would be more likely to break in a fall or tight places.

Do you want a speaker/mic/sound card for basic speech communication?

What degree of water resistance would this require? none, resistant or proof? I would vote for resistant.

there must be some hooks as well, fro it to carr oxygen pipe, etc...

yes, there should be a speaker and a mic on it.

Oh my god, I just typed a huge reply and it got erased on a refresh!

i will go now, look for a gun and load it and then point it in my mouth and shoot................SH!!!!T

all I can say is Gohm, good ideas, great!@!!!

And ahmed, we either use Processor plus 2 PIC's on PP or Serial OR a PIC network. Nothing else will work in this highly complicated project. Weight is not an issue. How can 2 PIC's make it bulky?

Power is important, 266 MHz is a LOT better than a PIC32's 40 or 80 MHz for controlling:
(Note: ive put in comments for the ideas by Gohm and ahmed too)
We have to handle the following AND send it wirelessly.


1. Motors
2. IR cam/normal cam (Video of my IR cam I made sometime ago: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEus27_7jdE" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">- YouTube</a>)
3. Speakers : Use laptops or make independent FM trans/reciv.
4. Temperature
5. One arm (DOF-Degree of freedom unknown at present)
6. Gas detector is not cheap but good idea if we can afford em:
Combustible gas detctr.: <$200
Multiple:$1000+
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7. waterproofing: Good.
8. Compressed Oxygen tank small for supply:
Theory 😀 : #-Link-Snipped-#
Buy it? :#-Link-Snipped-#

Sorry, my original reply got deleted and its 3 am here 😔

Hmmm...
Lets leave the issue of bulkiness and weight behind for the time being.

I was thinking about the wireless part...
Bluetooth Class I range is 100m and Wi-Fi is 35m or so. Both are insufficient. I dont know how we, specially I got dragged into thinking that we could use bluetooth or wi-fi. May be because we just hear it everyday in our daily life and that made my mind think in one direction. anway you all must be knowing that communication simple and effecient communication is best possible ony through radio. There are many examples of radio controlling, the simple one of a remote controlled toy car.
I think we'll have to use only radio for controlling the bot, and the data we get fom the bot should be in AM or FM (preferred). Simple transcievers would do fine on both ends, we only have to define which signal means what (in simple words, protocol).

Think on it.. Details Later...

Thats a good thinking. i have though of that sometime ago. However, I think we have to include both, WiFi and FM transmission. Here is why:

1. FM communication is excellent at long range, but the problem is bandwidth. The data transmission rates is hell for the amount we need to transfer at high risk situations.

for example: The bot is working fine with FM communications for command to move x distance with x speed in x direction, and we are receiving the temperature, location of the bot etc.

Now we find something, we need the video transfer, we have to send audio, receive audio, need robot data, position, alignment, temperature, send motion commands and maybe move the arm. This much data is impossible to send by a few FM transmitters.

BUT, we CAN use a FM transmitter like 477 MHz, which has a good range and good transfer rate, but we might have to use a few of them.

Initially the reason we thought of Wi-Fi or BT was the fact it was easy to connect it to the PC and program it for communication. But yes we can add in a 477 MHz for emergency or critical tests and communication.

What should I discuss next?

Only 3 were active here and now of these 3, 1 is missing... How is your fever ash?

Ahmed, you have really contributed a lot! Now, in the next 3 days I will make a document writing down the things we discussed, and making a rough plan of what components will be present. Ofcourse, we can change it in time, we have to, there are always changes.

I want to know if you are familiar with gmail and Google documents? If not then I recommend taking a look. I will keep one file open for changes and the other un-editable for sharing.

Our next goal would be to design the chassis and the body. But before that we would have to research or know a bit about previous similar bots around. It would be nice if you find some links, i will too.

===============================================
OBJECTIVE 1.1

Research similar bots and collect useful data. This can either be done in one week or two.

OBJECTIVE 2

To design the body and consider things like motors and track drives etc. (later)

========================================================
(I never noticed we can change color. Good for showing important points)

Thank you! And you have contributed a lot too. Where is the other member?

Heard of google documents, burt dont worry, i learn things b looking at them. Almost all my knowledge of electronics and computers (including programming) has been gained onl by looking!

I am sorry to say I wont be able to do research because, hold your breath, I use dial up connection!

For body and chassis design, we'll have to rope in mechanical people, or are we doing it ourselves?

For the time being I'll work on the block diagram for this thing. What say?

Excellent we can have the rough block diagram starte rite now itself. I dont know where the other 9,519 members are, but anyway this is ok for now. We can go slow for a while because I got my thesis deadlines coming up too 😁

I am going to college tomorrow, so I will know my time table.

Its ok, I will be doing the research side by side, and whatever I find Ill post it here, or email them to you. Till then carry on with the block diagram.

*comes from behind bush*
Boo!

Great progress 😀 My apologies.. my fever is slowly subsiding, but I'm in the midst of my end of semester exams. My brain hurts!

Its ok, concentrate on the sem, I know how it is 😀 My thesis is slowing down these days. We can contribute little whenever we can.

We will keep this alive. I am still working on something. will post on it soon.

try to post up the Google Document thing.. I'll add stuff to that too if needed 😀

Ash you can add stuff here. Because the Google doc will take some time. Dedicating time to this project can get difficult sometimes. I will soon, condense all the info and post it soon, as a pdf or in a Gdoc.

I just came across an excellent storage problem. Considering the fact that we will be using the onboard hardrive for log files, AI programming, and possibly video, I have found a good solution for a heavy drive.

This is what a normal laptop drive looks like:


And this is what the Seagate S1 5GB Microdrive looks like:



Why this instead of a flash drive? Well, 1. Flash drive will take up USB space, and 2. We do not want to waste the IDE slot on the motherboard.

This Microdrive can be connected to a standard IDE slot using tha ATA protocol.

UPDATE: Objective 1.1 has been completed. We now know what the robot will constitute. Now something important:

Something thats been irritating me for sometime is, are we sure we need to build a rescue robot? What other ideas do we have? Like something dedicated to Video processing? like a security bot, with plastic pellet guns, and siren etc etc? I am having doubts for the rescue thing. Its just too redundant, people do better work when it comes to rescue task.

Suggestions are welcome.

Interesting find on the Microdrive! Technically its also a "flash" storage though.. *grin*

Looks like we have a dilemma on the robot's function. How about we make the robot modular? Meaning.. you can use it for different purposes by changing the output transducers modularly (by switching the arms for the pellet gun). And remember, the rescue robot doesnt have to be used for dragging people from fires or whatnot; it can be used to gain information in hard to reach places. Plus, Gohm mentioned:

What about a gas detector? Can detect the threat of carbon monoxide, natural gas leaks, etc. that could be a risk to people entering area afterwards (scientists, rescue workers).

Thus, it still has a valid function as a rescue robot 😀

What we have to make sure is that the robot is highly maneuverable, runs for a long time on batteries, that it is able to send and receive information efficiently. Once we figure that out, the robot can be used for multiple functions and roles 😀

A word of warning about the Google Docs. I was checking it out.. apparently, if we create a google doc using the CE Mail, we can only invite collaborators and viewers from those having CE Mail. In this light, I tested with a normal gmail address.. and turned out we can't invite people from CE Mail 😉 Kinda weird though.

Also, I checked out the google sites thing, made a CE Lab page @ <a href="https://sites.google.com/a/crazyengineers.com/ce-lab-projects/Home" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">CE Labs Projects</a>

I put it has public view. However, I think it has the same problem of same domain collaborators only. Shucks.. lol.

Eek, sorry for the triple posting. I checked out the laptop service manual <a href="https://www.eserviceinfo.com/downloadsm/27467/Acer_Extensa%205xx.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Acer Extensa 5xx Service Guide - Service Manual Free Download</a>

Some possible things of interest include the I/O address map and other channels 😀 (and a guide for disassembling the thing).

I think this is what the motherboard layout would be like, along with the connectors.

Top View:

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JK1 AC Adapter Connector
BT1 RTC Battery
CN20 Keyboard Connector
CN19 Touchpad Connector
CN18 HDD Connector
CN17 Fan Connector (reserved)
CN16 CD-ROM Connector
CN15 FDD Connector
CN14 CPU Connectors
CN13 PCMCIA Socket
CN12 Golden Finger for Debug Board
CN11 Power Switch
CN10 LED Board Connector
CN9 LCD Connector
CN8 Internal Microphone Connector
CN7 LCD Cover Switch Connector
CN6 Port Replicator
CN5 USB Port
CN4 Video Port
CN3 PS/2 Port
CN2 Serial Port
CN1 Parallel Port

SW1 Settings
Switch 1, Switch 2 Default at OFF setting, un-configurable.

SW2 Settings
Switch 1 ON: OEM BIOS
OFF: Acer BIOS
Switch 2 ON: Bypass password
OFF: Check password
Switch 3, Switch 4 OFF, OFF: US keyboard
OFF, ON: European keyboard
ON, OFF: Japanese keyboard

Bottom View
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SM1 Modem Socket
CN23, CN24 Charger Connector
CN22 DIMM Socket 1
CN21 DIMM Socket 2

Lots of connectors is always good *grin* xhx, when you have time to take the laptop apart, can you give us some live pics of the system board? Also, is there any way to use the Port Replicator connection for other uses? Thats like a docking thing right.

My last exam paper is on sunday. After that, I plan to do some possible rough designs of the CE Bot (on mspaint, of course 😉 ) CEans, now that the CE shirt contest is over, start designing the CE Bot! Winner gets a.. um.. will leave that to biggie 😉

1. You are a fuk!ng genius! lol, good work on the mother board pinout and layout, and all other outs. This diagram can be useful for reference.

You know, I have just 2 minutes to reply. So ill be fast and will read in detail a bit later.

You are spot on with the modulerarity (fish spellings)!! I had forgotten that. good idea, we will keep it HIGHLY modular, and customizable. Recently there was a product, which was a small processor in a box, and u can attach anything to it. LCD, GPS, sensors, blah, and other blahs. And make it do anything with symbol programming or direct coding. Its actually an electronic device, commercial and hackable. Ok so now we know that.


And yea, the hard drive, Microdrive is actually a miniature hard drive, its not exactly flash, it looks like one though. Here is an extract from the datasheet:

These drives provide the following key features:
•3,600-RPM spindle speed and 2-Mbyte buffer combine for superior performance.
•Quiet operation. Fluid Dynamic Bearing (FDB) motor.
•Giant magnetoresistive (GMR) recording heads and EPRML technology, which provide the drives with increased areal density.
•State-of-the-art cache and on-the-fly error-correction algorithms.
•1.5K Gs nonoperating shock, and 200 Gs operating shock.
•SeaTools™ diagnostic software performs a drive self-test that eliminates unnecessary drive returns.
•The 3D Defense System™, which includes Drive Defense, Data Defense, and Diagnostic Defense, offers the industry’s most comprehensive protection for disc drives.

Anyway, ill be checking out the labs page rite now and reply a bit later.

Again good work!!!! Realy.

But xhx, according to Wikipedia, Microdrive has quite a number of disadvantages 😔

Disadvantages of Microdrives

• As of 2006, Microdrive's capacity advantages were exceeded by CompactFlash cards<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdrive#cite_note-2" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Microdrive - Wikipedia</a>, and USB flash drives.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdrive#cite_note-3" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Microdrive - Wikipedia</a>
• Being mechanical devices they are more sensitive to physical shock and temperature changes than flash memory, though in practice they are very robust and manufacturers have added several features to the more recent models to improve reliability.
• A microdrive will generally not survive a 4 foot (1.2 metres) drop onto a hard surface where CF cards can be thrown off high-rise buildings and still function. Using a soft packaging (e.g. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystyrene" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Polystyrene - Wikipedia</a> foam) can allow survival from a longer drop.
• Newer Microdrives have a mechanism to hold the heads off the platter while the device is not in use. Early IBM models do not have this - when one gently shakes such a drive one can hear the heads click from side to side.
• Microdrives are not as fast as the high-end CompactFlash cards; they generally operate at around 4-6 megabytes per second while high-end CF cards can operate at 20 megabytes per second. This may cause problems for photographers who shoot sequences of large images in rapid succession.
• Not designed to operate at high altitudes (over 10000 feet), but can be safely used on most commercial aircraft as cabins are generally pressurized.
• Only high capacity models are manufactured, as it is not profitable to make low-capacity Microdrives. At the end of 2005 only capacities above 2 gigabytes are manufactured while 256mb and 512mb CompactFlash cards were still in production. Lower capacities are still readily available second hand on <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">eBay - Wikipedia</a> but these are usually the same price as CF cards of the same size.
• Unlike flash memory, microdrives require power even when no data is being transferred to them to keep the disc spinning. As a result many devices such as the iPod mini leave the drive switched off for most of the time while periodically starting it up to fetch data from it to fill the device's buffer. Microdrives will switch off after idling for more than a few seconds to counter this problem however this means that more time is lost constantly spinning the drive up. This effect would be particularly problematic if an operating system is being run from the drive. However the drive can be forced to stay running if the host device is programmed to write random bits of data to it.
• Certain bus-powered CF card readers lack the power needed to run a microdrive although they do take CF II cards, when using such a device it will usually be detected by the host but errors will occur once the user attempts to access the drive.
• Microdrives also require some time to spin up, this is very low when compared to regular hard drives but not as fast as flash memory.
• Since Microdrives are often integrated in another device this can cause trouble if the drive breaks, it is usually the most fragile component of the device and if the device is out of warranty it can be very difficult to replace the drive

From <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdrive" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Microdrive - Wikipedia</a>

In light of the fact we what the robot to be robust, will the Microdrive still be ok after rough treatment?

On more thing; can we use the PCMCIA slot for the wireless transmission? Perhaps a pre 802.11n card. Funny you mentioned GPS.. I was thinking of the feasilibility of adding that feature on the robot last night. just2rock, if you are reading this, can GPS be implemented in robot effectively?

Excellent. Thanks for clearing that up. We will be using compact flash, if possible, sandisk 8/16 GB or higher NOR type can be used, connected to the normal IDE drive (if possible to connect, we might as well use the slot rather than keeping it unused.

Bythway, check the Labs Page. It was also an awesome job you did. Better than the GoogleDocs. I tihnk why others (non CE members) are not allowed is because Google wants that space for Teams and Groups to share among themselves, Its just a guess. Cuz if everyone starts visinting, bandwidth can be overloaded.

Again, thanks for the CE Labs!!! <a href="https://sites.google.com/a/crazyengineers.com/ce-lab-projects/Home" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">CE Labs Projects</a>

No prob 😉 Good work on adding more content to it!

But remember, only those with CE Mail can edit. Not all CEans have it (since accounts on Crazy Engineers are not linked with CE Mail, I believe). Plus, I set it to public so everyone in the world can view. So lets assume CE Labs is a temporary place until Biggie can add a projects module to the vBulletin system here 😀 Once we can do that, we can easily set permission settings so only those members involved with projects can edit files 😀

On a related note, assuming more CE Teams are created (eg editors, mods, promoters), you can have private/public sections in Google Sites using the CE Mail system.. if they all have that in the first place 😀 Though ideally we'd want everything integrated within Crazy Engineers website. That can be done later in the future I guess!

can i help you?
i have knowledge about image and video processing with matlab.

Your idea for individual places for each CE Team is good. But we can keep it private only on the global level. All CE Team can see eachothers pages since many CE's have more then one task. I think thats what you meant.

Anyway, I will check if one portion of CE Site remains private (Editorial) and the other public (Labs).

Bytheway, if you get time Ash, add something about the project.

@Sanih, You can help, and when we get to the point of discussing the OS then you can add in. Anyway, you can contribute at anytime you like, though I think you should read some previous posts on the topic.

Welcome aboard, sanih 😉

Ok, I just finish exams! Now can spend lots of time on Crazy Engineers, hehe. Will add stuff on the project soon, xhx. Btw, theres this nice article I came across. One of my engineering buddies suggested taking a look at soccer bots. They have similar objectives with ours in term of wireless communication system from robot to main computer (and other bots), image processing with cameras, etc. I think one of the models have laptops in them too. In fact, its quite scary that the ideas there are darn similar (like using the PCMCIA wireless card). Its a good read.. hopefully it can guide us in our own project.

oh, and ahmed.. it also has flowcharts 😀 check them out!

#-Link-Snipped-#

I'll try to find links to robots that utilize the tracked locomotion system. Anywayz, I'm kinda afraid we make this project too complicated, hehe. What I suggest is we work on the very simple stuff first. Future versions can have the advanced features 😀 However, does not stop from getting thoughts from everyone... so post your crazy ideas!

[EDIT]
Has anyone used the wings3D software before? #-Link-Snipped-#
Might be good for modelling our robot, just to show some concepts. I planned on trying something with the Alibre CAD software to kick start the design process. It was free the last time I used it 😉 I believe there are CEans here who are experienced with CAD too.

[EDIT 2]
Wow, check this Google Site out. Its designed specifically for team projects:
#-Link-Snipped-#

Looks like our CE Labs page still has a long way to go, haha.

Excellent, and yea, I PMed you about the RTOS, you know about it already 😀

Anyway, I agree its getting complicated, so we can concentrate on something small plus and make it modular, like we can add anything else later if we want to.

So there are two very important things now.

1. Designing the body, and choosing minimum of neccessary hardware. rite?

2. Designing the software part. What should be processed onboard what sould be processed offboard.

Is it right?


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Take a look at this: https://demo.projects.zoho.com/login.do (username and password at bottom)

Ok, Ive created a CE Projects thing at Zoho. Using the Free package, I can only do one project. Other limitations include the 100mb space limit, which I think is high enough already!

xhx, can you pm me an e-mail add you'd like to use to access the projects page? I'll add you as a member. I'll invite biggie too! We can test it out together and see what its like. The place is here:
#-Link-Snipped-#

Heres the list of different plans available:
#-Link-Snipped-#

I think we can aim for the Basic package if we finally choose Zoho. I certainly wont mind chipping in for the $8 monthly charge 😀 When we get more active projects, we can aim for the Express package 😉

But anywayz, back to topic. Sanih pm'd me about the use of the I2C bus.. that should be no problem, I believe. Won't really conflict with anything else 😉

So there are two very important things now.

1. Designing the body, and choosing minimum of neccessary hardware. rite?

2. Designing the software part. What should be processed onboard what sould be processed offboard.

Yep 😀 That should form the nucleus of the whole project.

If CEans are wondering about the status of this project, me and xhx are still doing on going testing at both Google Sites and Zoho Projects. Hopefully we will be done in a couple of weeks 😉

In the meantime, feel free to contribute to the discussion. Perhaps you can draft a rough design of the bot? Remember to look through the posts in this thread!

here is the Google Site link: <a href="https://sites.google.com/a/crazyengineers.com/ce-lab-projects/Home" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">CE Labs Projects</a>

#-Link-Snipped-#

^ A sample CE bot model using #-Link-Snipped-#. It took a lot of fiddling just to extrude the shapes properly. I suppose this program can only be used to draft ideas without the need of accuracy, cause it's pretty hard to get used to the views. I'll try out Blender next, and finally Alibre (which is a true CAD software). I really miss using Catia V5 😔 Oh, did you guys know V6 is coming out soon? I hope that'll drive the price of V5 down substantially!

If your wondering why there is a hockey stick at the top, it was supposed to be a flag pole. But I dragged some kinda node and it bent the shape. I'll just let it be.. haha. Maybe you guys can try it out? I bet you'll have better luck than me 😀

#-Link-Snipped-#

Okay, I skipped the Blender software.. too complicated to learn quickly 😛 Above is part of the tracked wheel system designed in Alibre, didn't take me long to do it. If you have learnt CAD software before, Alibre is relatively easy to understand. You can download it for free #-Link-Snipped-#, but you'll need to register first. Its a 30 day trial of the full software before it disables some features (like assembly). I think theres a register-free edition #-Link-Snipped-#.. am downloading it now to check it out.

I think I need some more time to learn the Blender software.. its not really a CAD software, rather a modeller and animator of some kinda. But you can get really awesome looking outputs with it!

Nice design ash. you can also add one more set of wheels and chain at an inclination of 45 degrees with one end. This will be free to move and in case the bot falls in a pit, it will make the bot do a somersault and get out. This will increase the reach.

Using of WiFi will be suitable. The IEEE 802.11y is estimated for a release in June this year. It's range(radius outdoors is 5000 m), 3.7Ghz, throughput (typ) 24 Mbits/s, data rate (max) 54Mbits/s.
The long range WiFi my be better option for this project though.

Thanks for the input, bro! The 802.11y is an interesting choice, though I kind of worry about it's power consumptions. We will compile all the possible technologies soon and see their pros and cons.

Raj, which CAD software do you use at your uni? Can you try out your wheel and chain idea and post it here? 😀 Me still a rookie when it comes to CAD, hehe. Today I was testing out different softwares that are freely available on the net, so we can easily share the data files.. wasn't really aiming to design possible ideas yet. You know any other good free CAD software? I might try BRL-CAD out.

We use AutoCAD and ProE but i will learn Solid Works Catia and Ansys(an analysis software) in my holidays.
Yeah sure i will but it may take some time as my end sem exams are starting. They will be over on 17th of the next month.

Oh, best of luck bro! 😀

Ash, did I tell you before those designs are reallllyy good. you must have worked hard on it in Google sketch, since making a grove is a little difficult for me still. and on my Vista crap, Google Sk does not work, have to find out why.

I can work mainly on AutoCad for drawings.

Raj, Catia, is one hell of a bomb. And Ansys!? wow both are crazy softwares. Ash you know, Catia is used by Boing to design their 747/777's ! 😀 sadly it's kindof not free: Catia MD2 (Basic?) costs about $14,000 ^_^ plus 14% every year for renewals. But if we are not using it for commercial design then its a different matter (I guess).